PARENTING WITH IMPACT PODCAST
Parenting Ahead of the Problem with Dr. Ross Greene (podcast#273)
When rewards, punishments, and consequences aren’t working, it may be time to ask new questions. In this episode, Dr. Ross Greene explains why challenging behavior isn’t usually a sign of defiance or poor motivation, but a signal that a child is struggling with expectations they cannot yet meet. He introduces the Collaborative and Proactive Solutions mode and explains how shifting from behavior management to collaborative problem solving can reduce conflict, strengthen relationships, and help kids build the skills they need to succeed. Discover how changing the way you see challenging behavior can transform the way you support your child. Download a free tipsheet "Top 10 Ways to Stop Meltdowns in Their Tracks" to stop yelling and tantrums from everyone! Amazon Music | iHeart | Spotify | Apple Podcasts | TuneIn | Youtube Ross is the originator of the Collaborative & Proactive Solutions (CPS) model, as described in his influential books The Explosive Child, Lost at School, Lost & Found, and Raising Human Beings, and the forthcoming The Kids Who Aren’t Okay: The Urgent Case for Reimagining Support, Belonging, and Hope in Schools. He served on the faculty at Harvard Medical School for over 20 years, and is now an adjunct Professor in the Department of Psychology at Virginia Tech and in the Faculty of Science at The University of Technology Sydney in Australia. He is deeply involved in fundraising efforts at Lives in the Balance, CPS model projects, and Lives in the Balance documentaries and mini-documentaries. Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Dr. Ross Greene Elaine Taylor-Klaus Download a free tipsheet "Top 10 Ways to Stop Meltdowns in Their Tracks" to stop yelling and tantrums from everyone!
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Parenting Ahead of the Problem with Dr. Ross Greene
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Our Discussion
I was trained as a behaviorist a very long time ago and was finding that the advice I was giving parents and educators wasn’t working often enough to make me question my training. I started feeling the need to do things differently. There wasn’t much out there 35 years ago that offered a different approach, so I started creating one myself. That approach is now called Collaborative and Proactive Solutions. I first published it in The Explosive Child in 1998, and I just released my newest book, my sixth, called The Kids Who Aren’t Okay, which focuses on schools.
Love that. Let’s go back for just a second to the advice that wasn’t working. Diane and I talk about this a lot: the idea that what got me doing this work was following what the “experts” were telling me, and it wasn’t working. It not only made me worry about my kids, but it also made me feel like a terrible parent. When you think about what wasn’t working, what was it?
I was trained to help caregivers focus primarily on a kid’s concerning behavior and to modify that behavior through consequences, whether rewards or punishments. In many cases, I found that punishment was inflaming kids, and I also found that not receiving an expected reward could inflame them too. Inflaming kids wasn’t what I was trying to do. So I went back to the research and found it much more productive to view concerning behavior as a frustration response or a distress response, not as manipulation, attention seeking, coercion, limit testing, or lack of motivation. I had also been taught that these kids behaved this way because their parents were passive, permissive, inconsistent, non-contingent, or inept disciplinarians. But that didn’t explain why those same parents often had other well-behaved children in the same home.
Can I pause you? Because I think people really need to hear what you just said. The behaviors you were seeing in these kids were not because the parents were dismissive or ineffective.
That’s what we’ve always been calling them: passive, permissive, inconsistent, non-contingent, inept disciplinarians. But once you start working with a lot of these families and discover they have well-behaved kids in the same home, you realize that explanation is far too narrow and, most of the time, simply not true. There has to be something else going on, and the research tells us what that is, we just have to pay attention to it.
It takes a long time for research to make its way into practice unless someone takes the reins. I remember a mom who came to me about 15 years ago and said, “This is not my first rodeo, but what worked in that rodeo isn’t working in this one.” That’s really what you’re saying. When the traditional approaches aren’t working, it doesn’t mean the child is broken or the parent is broken. It means something different is needed.
Correct. I even came to question whether the original approaches were ever really “working.” I think you can get away with them with a lot of kids. Some kids have a greater margin for error; you can make more mistakes without causing harm. But there are other kids where you don’t have that margin. You have to get it right. What I ultimately realized is that kids’ frustration responses, especially the maladaptive ones, are rooted in skills they’re struggling with: flexibility, adaptability, frustration tolerance, problem-solving, and emotion regulation. The research has been clear about that for a long time. What are they getting frustrated about? Expectations they’re having difficulty meeting, what we call unsolved problems in the Collaborative and Proactive Solutions model. That leads caregivers to a completely different approach. Instead of being in the behavior modification business, you’re in the problem-solving business, and your child becomes your partner in solving those problems. And that sets caregivers up for a completely different approach. Instead of being in the behavior modification business, you are in the problem-solving business, and your kid- this is the collaborative piece- is your partner.
Because it’s really them that we’re trying to empower, to help them take agency over their life when they’re ready to and in the ways that they can, right?
That is correct. This is something you’re doing with them, not to them. This is about collaboration, not power. Don’t worry, parents, you’re still an authority figure. Don’t worry, educators, you’re still an authority figure, but actually a more credible authority figure in my mind because, over the last 35 to 40 years, I’ve worked with kids who were over-punished, over-corrected, over-directed, and it didn’t do them any good. What’s the point of that?
We like to say that irritation happens in the gap between expectation and reality. The work you’re speaking to is recognizing that when there’s a gap between what we expect of kids, or even what they expect of themselves, and what they’re developmentally ready to do at that point, that creates agitation, irritation, frustration, overwhelm, you name it.
Some kids express that through their behavior, and some kids’ behavior is what I call unlucky: screaming, swearing, hitting, spitting, kicking, biting, throwing, destroying, running. The more unlucky a kid’s behavior, the less likely they are to be greeted by caregivers with empathy, nurturance, and support, and the more likely they are to be met with punitive, exclusionary discipline. But when it comes to frustration responses, whether they’re mild or extreme, they’re communicating the exact same thing. There’s an expectation this kid is having difficulty meeting.
Yeah. So if the kid is having difficulty meeting expectations, and we give caregivers, parents, providers, and educators a framework for seeing those behaviors through a different lens, right? In coaching, we call it a perspective shift. What’s the new lens that you would offer?
There are two critical pieces of information you need, and they are pieces of information that frequently don’t get collected. Most of the information collected about these kids is about their behavior, their frustration responses. In schools, we do behavior observations, behavior checklists, and functional behavior assessments so we can come up with a behavior plan focused on completely the wrong thing. What we try to help schools do, and what we try to help parents do as well, is focus on the problems that are causing the behavior. That is huge in a few ways. First, now you’re focused on something completely different. As long as you’re focused on your kid’s behavior, you’re going to be trying to modify it. You’re in reward-and-punishment territory. But if you’re focused on the problems causing that behavior, the universe opens up for you to play a completely different role in this kid’s life.
Once again, you’re a problem solver. But here’s the clincher: the unsolved problems are early. The concerning behavior is late. If concerning behavior is a frustration response, then it comes after the unsolved problem. We have got to get out of crisis management mode. It pains me to see the amount of time and money schools spend teaching educators what to do once a kid is already becoming frustrated. We could spend a fraction of that teaching them how to solve problems proactively so the kid doesn’t become frustrated in the first place. Here’s the clincher. How can we solve these problems proactively when these kids are supposedly so unpredictable? They’re not unpredictable. The vast majority of expectations a kid is having difficulty meeting are old. This isn’t the first time the kid has had difficulty completing the double-digit division problems on the math worksheet. It’s the 197th time. Why are we still dealing with it in the heat of the moment when we could have identified and solved that problem proactively and collaboratively a long time ago?
Yeah. At Impact, the language we use to set the stage for this is to encourage providers and parents to ask the question, “Is it naughty or neurological?” Or is it sensory, or is it metabolic? There are a lot of different things that could be leading to the problems. But if we stop starting with the assumption that a behavior is “naughty,” “bad,” “improper,” or “unwanted,” then we can shift toward compassion and support if we understand there’s an underlying cause.
Yeah. These days, I don’t slice the pie by behavior. Diagnoses do. Fight, flight, freeze does. My only slicing of the pie is lucky and unlucky. People aren’t going to find that in the diagnostic manual. I invented it, and it’s fake, right? But it makes the point that, bottom line, a frustration response is a frustration response. Concerning behavior is a frustration response. Your kid is frustrated. They’re not frustrated because they’re trying to pull the wool over your eyes or yank your chain. They’re frustrated because there’s an expectation they’re having difficulty meeting. That’s something we can help caregivers focus on, identify proactively, and learn how to solve proactively, something no reward and no punishment will ever do.
Absolutely. My guest is Dr. Ross Greene. We’ve been talking about the foundation of the work he’s done for decades to shift the focus away from behavior in kids who are struggling with different aspects of learning, emotions, and life, and instead help identify the causes leading them to become so frustrated that these behaviors show up. We’re really shifting the focus from behavior to understanding expectations and adjusting those expectations in a way that sets our kids up for success instead of failure. Anything you want to add to that before we move on to talk about the new book?
I think you just covered it.
Beautiful. You’ve written a number of books. You’ve captured the nature of this work and set the stage for so many of us working in this collaborative space over the decades, and I’m really grateful for what you’ve done. When we first started talking today about your new book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay, you said it’s edgier, that you’re calling people out a little bit. I’m going to bring that forward because, of course, that’s my favorite part, and I can’t wait to get my hands on it. There are a lot of kids who aren’t okay right now, and more kids than ever are struggling in this very complicated world we find ourselves in. Tell us a little bit about what led you to take more of an advocacy role with this book.
I’m worried. I don’t write new books unless I feel like I have something new to say. I’m worried about the sky-high rates of depression, anxiety, suicidality, concerning behavior, and chronic school absenteeism we’re seeing in young people. In Chapter 1, I talk about all the changes over the last two to three decades that have made it harder to be a kid. It’s actually rather sobering. In Chapter 2, I start getting into things we could change. We can’t cover the whole list, but one of the biggest is that we’ve got to focus on problems instead of behaviors. Some of the biggest initiatives for the kids struggling the most in schools are still focused on behavior. My attitude is, you’ve all had your time, right? Why are the rates still going up? Focusing on behavior isn’t the answer, and clearly it isn’t working. Focusing on problems, and being proactive, is huge. But as you mentioned before the break, there’s a key concept in the book called expectation management. Thanks to a variety of initiatives in schools, especially high-stakes testing, we’re placing a lot of expectations on kids that educators already know they can’t meet.
Right.
So the term I want to introduce is expectation management. We really need to give serious thought to it. We don’t want to abandon the principle of helping every kid achieve at their maximum level. That’s wonderful. I’m not questioning that. I’m questioning placing expectations on kids that we already know they can’t meet. What happens when we do that is we create a frustration response, and everything that follows: detention, suspension, expulsion, restraint, seclusion, corporal punishment.
Give an example. What do you mean when you say setting expectations we know they can’t meet?
If we put double-digit division problems on Billy’s math worksheet when we already know he can’t do them, then Billy is going to have a frustration response. After that, based on our crisis management training, we decide he’s becoming escalated, so we try to de-escalate him. By then, we’re already too late. If de-escalation doesn’t work, we may restrain or seclude him if his behavior is unlucky enough. After he calms down, we may give him detention or suspension. If we’re really tired of him, we may even expel him. What a recipe for disaster. If we used Billy as his own reference point for success and progress, we’d give him work that’s appropriately challenging for him, not necessarily the same work that’s challenging for the kid sitting next to him. That’s what differentiated instruction is all about.
Billy would be successful. Billy wouldn’t be entering the school discipline system. But many educators are worried about getting into trouble. They’re worried about being sued for being out of compliance with an IEP they already know isn’t working for the kid. It’s a mess. We really have to start taking a closer look.
So if you’re using the child’s own information as the reference point for success, I appreciate that language. Earlier you also said we could be doing this in a way that’s preventive and less costly than the system we’re using now. A lot of people hearing that are probably thinking, “That means more paraprofessionals, more teachers, more differentiation. How can I do that with 30 kids in a classroom?” What’s your response to that?
You don’t have time not to do that in a classroom of 30 kids because of the amount of time you’re already spending dealing with frustration responses. Most educators know this very well. I’m not saying anything new. If you’re not meeting kids where they’re at, whether you’re a parent or a teacher, and that’s the definition of good parenting and good teaching, you’re going to have a lot of behavior in that classroom. Kids are going to keep getting sent to the office. What the office usually brings to the table, and this isn’t an indictment of the office, is consequences. Now those kids’ piles of unsolved problems just keep growing because we’re not focused on the unsolved problems in the first place. We’re focused on the behaviors those problems are causing. What a mess.
What’s the fix?
Identify those problems proactively. Solve those problems collaboratively and proactively. Start having significantly less faith in the consequences we’ve been applying forever, especially for the 5, 10, or 15 kids in every building who are struggling the most. Those eventually become our most expensive kids because, sooner or later, we discover all those consequences didn’t get the job done. We place them out, and now they’re costing the school system a fortune.
So if I… and I’m 1,000% with you. Identify the problems, start collaborating with the kid, take away the consequence approach. What do we bring in its place?
Problem-solving, collaboratively, meaning with the full involvement of the kid. The kid should be indispensable to the problem-solving process, and proactively. We have got to get parents and educators out of the heat of the moment. Nothing good happens in the heat of the moment. All we can do there is de-escalate, which makes the restraint industry, as we call it, very happy. It makes the behavior industry very happy because now we’re talking about behavior, but we’re not accomplishing anything. All right, let’s change it.
Okay. One of the things I know we battle with is that the current mainstream protocols directing parents and schools are still based on an old paradigm of behavior consequences, tightly managing behavior, and, for kids on the spectrum, ABA therapies. There’s an entire establishment that’s still working from an old playbook.
No question about it. Here’s the good news. Collaborative and Proactive Solutions is evidence-based. Whenever we study the CPS model, we compare it against the applied behavior analytic, behavior modification approach. It always comes out at least equivalent, which is one of the reasons it’s considered evidence-based. Behavior modification is an industry too. It’s bigger than the restraint industry. This isn’t anything against applied behavior analysts, many of whom love this model. But if you keep training people behaviorally, don’t be surprised when schools stay focused on a kid’s concerning behavior instead of solving the problems causing that behavior. This adjustment isn’t as big as it may sound. Many schools have already made it, and they’ve seen their detention, suspension, restraint, and seclusion rates plummet, often to zero. For me, this isn’t in doubt. What pains me is seeing people continue doing the same thing over and over when it’s clearly not working, simply because they’re not sure what else to do. Well, this is something else to do, and it’s evidence-based.
Yeah. I would love to keep talking, but we have to start wrapping up. I want to let people know how to find you. You can find all of Dr. Ross Greene’s books on Amazon, including the new book, The Kids Who Aren’t Okay. You can also find it through livesinthebalance.org. We’ll include all the links in the show notes. His books are also featured in our reading carousels at Impact Parents, so there are plenty of ways to find these resources. Ross, what haven’t we talked about that you want to make sure we include? This audience is primarily parents and professionals. I like to say we support the parents of complex kids and the professionals who support them. They’re all trying to take a more conscious, collaborative approach. What else would you want them to hear?
Just because a kid is complex, just because a kid has concerning behavior, does not mean the caregivers of that child are limited to approaches that are late, crisis-oriented, or focused on consequences. If what you’re doing isn’t working, do something different. With intentionality and commitment, you can be early instead of late, and that’s critical because nothing great happens in the heat of the moment. Many of the parents and educators I work with want to tell me what happened in the heat of the moment. I’m happy to listen because I want to show them empathy, but I also want to move them past the heat of the moment as quickly as possible.
Totally. I love what you’re saying about being early instead of late. I know there are a lot of parents listening who are thinking, “But what if I’m already too late?” In our community, we support parents of kids from 4 to 40, so we have many parents of young adults as well. In my experience, it’s never too late because every child wants to be in relationship with their parents if they can and if they feel safe doing it. So what do you say to parents who feel like it’s already too late?
I’m going to borrow what you just said and add a little to it. It’s never too late to make a list of all the expectations a kid is having difficulty meeting, and it’s never too late to start solving those problems collaboratively and proactively.
Beautiful. I’ve got to tell you a story, and I talk about this in my book. At one point, I wrote a list of the 32 things my child was struggling with, which I think was more for me than for my kid. My mistake was showing the list to my kid because suddenly it became too many things. So when I hear you say, “Make a list of all the expectations and start solving them,” the piece I want to add is to solve them one at a time.
Bingo.
Right.
Here’s the good news. While the list is likely to be quite long, because that pile of unsolved problems tends to grow when we’re not focused on solving them, you’re not going to have to solve all of them. Some will be solved by solving others. You’re never working on more than two or three at any given point in time, each individually. So although that original list can feel overwhelming, what I always tell people is, “I’ll tell you what’s more overwhelming, having no idea what those unsolved problems are, and therefore being stuck dealing with a kid’s frustration responses every time.” The first step is to make the list, and we have all kinds of free resources on the Lives in the Balance website to help people do that.
Love that. Beautiful. Thank you. Thank you for doing this amazing work. Thank you for sharing it with our community. It is inspirational and greatly appreciated to have your voice out there, taking a stand for the kids we really need to be paying attention to, the ones who are so easy to let fall through the cracks.
This is my passion. This is what I do.
I feel it, and I share it, so thank you for being here, and thank you for your work. I have to ask you one more question. Do you have a favorite quote or motto that you want to share?
Well, this is going to sound a little self-centered, but you mentioned it at the beginning of the program, even though we really haven’t talked about it. My favorite quote is probably my own: “Kids do well if they can,” which reflects the belief that kids would very much prefer to be doing well. They don’t need motivation. They need us to identify their lagging skills and unsolved problems. They need us to start solving those problems collaboratively and proactively. “Kids do well if they can” is the summary of my entire life’s work. I have to make it my favorite.
I respect that. I appreciate it. Again, Ross, thank you for being here. To those of you listening, take a moment and ask yourself, what are you taking away from this conversation? What insight, awareness, or A-ha are you bringing forward with you into your week? And as always, thanks for what you’re doing for your kids and for yourself. At the end of the day, your engagement and your presence make an extraordinary difference. If you like what you’re hearing on the podcast, please take a moment to like, follow, subscribe, or, better yet, leave a review. Whatever you can do helps us get this out to the parents who need it. Thanks again for being here. Take care, y’all.Minimize Meltdowns!
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