Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Diane and I are here today to riff on issues of import to our community. So, Diane, what are we talking about today?

Diane Dempster
We're talking about the intersection between executive function and education, between school and executive function. I think part of where this came from is that it's a common issue—number one for our community—and we hear it all the time.

It's like, "My kid's so smart, but they're having a hard time in school," or "I don't know how to help my kid with their schoolwork." And I know that they've got executive function challenges, and I'm not sure about this. I was on the phone this morning with a mom of a 14-year-old, and, Elaine, if you hear this all the time, at some point in the school environment, these super-smart kids hit a wall.

Right. And this super-smart kid—probably gifted—hit the wall in ninth grade, right? Up until ninth grade, their smarts compensated for their executive function challenges. The example that this mom gave was that the kid could spend 15 minutes studying before an exam and do great on it.

And now that there are some executive function challenges—she called it time blindness, was the example she gave—this kid has time blindness. So his ability to plan ahead, to figure out how much time he's gonna need, and how he organizes and schedules his studying and stuff is completely different because the work is more complicated.

So that's just one example of a super-smart kid who is suddenly hitting the wall because his executive function challenges have gotten in the way, I guess is the way I would say it. It's this sort of balance between their executive functions and their intellect that has gotten big enough that the gap has caught up with them, and they're starting to struggle. Yeah. Is there a way that you introduce this challenge?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. I'm listening to you, and it's like a lot of things are coming up, right? First of all, I want to address the notion that with complex kids, all of them are typically doing fine until they hit a wall. They may hit a wall at 6, or 10, or 14, or 18, or 22, or 28—like they all are doing fine until what you're describing. There's this gap that widens enough where they can no longer compensate for what's expected of them just by being smart.

Just by powering through. So that's one thing that comes up. That notion of when do they hit a wall? That's why we see kids getting diagnosed in late high school, college, or beyond—because they've been able to navigate it. The other thing that really comes up is that a lot of our kids, because they're so smart and things come to them so easily, they don't develop frustration tolerance.

So once they hit the wall, the wall feels even bigger, harder, firmer—because they haven't learned how to struggle, right? And that's part of learning. And if your kids are really smart and they work around things and get around it, they don't learn to be OK with making mistakes.

They don't learn to learn by failure. And so that frustration tolerance—or intolerance—becomes kind of this exacerbating factor, because that's an emotional regulation issue, right?

Diane Dempster
Oh...and I just, like, it's so funny cuz you said that, and I immediately have a story from Diane Land that you may have never even heard. Ooh, fun. You know, I was one of those—everyone knows I was a high performer—but I was a straight-A student in high school, and I got to pre-calculus and I struggled because pre-calculus works completely differently than my brain does. I figured that out later, but I didn't know it when I was taking pre-calculus.

And the teacher was gonna give me a B-plus. And I was like, it was like the worst thing in the world that could have happened, right? It's just sort of, "How dare you," blah, blah, blah. And to this day, I hate calc. I hate it—I have this kind of math phobia because of that experience.

And it's exactly what you're describing. I didn't develop frustration tolerance because it came so easy to me. And then here's this thing that's hard, and I'd never had an opportunity to try things that were hard for me up until then. And so... Yes, it's from Diane Land, but our kids struggle with this all the time.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And school is a generalist's experience, and our kids tend to be specialists. When we expect them to be great or equally good at everything, and they've got a specialist brain. Your experience was in math? Mine was in science. Yeah, right—similar, but different. And because I was a smart kid, they expected that I should be able to do equally well in all the different categories.

Diane Dempster
Well, I think the other parallel thing to this—because not all of you who are listening have kids that you would label as gifted—is that we happen to have two E kids in both of our families, and, you know, and Elaine, I think you'd identify as two E as well as an adult.

Yeah. And the other flavor of this is kids who mask really well—particularly in girls. I was talking to another mom the other day who did really, really well in school, but she did it because her motivation was that she wanted the teachers to be proud of her. She wanted her friends to like her. She wanted to be one of the cool kids. Right? There's an enormous amount of motivation to perform well. And we know that if a kid has ADHD or executive function challenges—and if it's something they're really motivated and interested in doing—it's an entirely different world. So this particular student ended up with a teacher they just didn't like at all, and all of a sudden, their grades tanked in that one class.

And the parents were like, "Whoa, wait, what's going on?" Again, it's a different kind of wall, but it's a wall because this child was able to perform in a different way—because they were really motivated to do well in school, I guess, is the way I would describe it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and the flip side to that is: what's the cost of that intense motivation? What you described was me in a lot of ways. The anxiety propelled me to be really successful in school, but the result was that I got sick and had a lot of anorexic tendencies, and I ended up with all kinds of illness-related issues from the stress that, in those days, nobody put together.

Yeah, right. To figure out what was really happening to me was that I was actually making myself sick because the need to perform was so strong and so driven.

Diane Dempster
Yeah. And I think that's the piece of it: you didn't understand until much later that what was really going on was that you had learning differences.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right, exactly. And attention to—and I didn't know. It's interesting because we started talking about the relationship between school and school success and executive function. Up until now, what we're talking about is the emotional regulation of executive function, and that's just one of many (six) aspects of executive function that really show up for these kids. But that emotional management piece is so key to being able to be present for what's expected of us at school.

Diane Dempster
Well, I think the bottom line—and then we can take a break—is that there are all kinds of executive function challenges that tie into this. Let's riff on this for a minute, because, correct: if you think about all the struggles that your kid has with regard to school—and school is a big, giant bucket—whether it's just completing work, staying focused in class, keeping up with a lecture and taking notes, writing essays, etc., there are all these different challenges. This is one of the things we talk about with parents a lot.

It's like, you gotta figure out what's really going on underneath it, and not just start with, "My kid's struggling with school." This morning, I was with a mom, and she said, "Well, what about homework?" and she said, "No, no, no. He's doing fine on his homework." He's able to do that. It's really test preparation.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Oh, that was Nick.

Diane Dempster
Yeah. So, it was like, "OK, so is it test preparation for all classes or just classes that are less favored?" It's just sort of, you're really kind of looking in and going, "What's really the struggle?"

Then you go, "OK, so what is the executive function?" It ties into this struggle. As an example, if my kid is having a hard time doing their homework—is it about avoiding distractions? Is it about getting started? Is it about knowing what their homework is? All those are three different executive functions that tie into homework, but you have to be really clear.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
You're gonna problem-solve differently depending on what's causing the problem.

Diane Dempster
Right. So you gotta know what the struggle really is, and then you've gotta figure out what the executive function challenge is underneath it. Anything else?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. What I wanna do is just explain that, and we'll direct you to another podcast on it. But in our world, we use the work of Dr. Tom Brown, and there are six key areas of executive function that our kids tend to struggle with—some areas, maybe not all, but at least a few. For example, emotional regulation is one of them, which Diane and I were talking about earlier, and then there's task management, which you were talking about.

Then there's effort, which is kind of the energy it takes to get going on something or to stick with something; working memory—remembering to do or not to do something; that kind of thing. What am I missing?

Diane Dempster
Energy.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I think I did energy and effort.

Diane Dempster
Oh, energy and effort are the same one.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right?

Diane Dempster
I can't do it without the chart in front of me. We gotta put the chart in the notes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
We'll put the chart in the notes. So there's physical hyperactivity, regulating your impulsivity or your active body; then there's attention. Right, good old-fashioned. You have your chart, but we just hit all six of them: then there's good old-fashioned attention. There are a million aspects to attention. It's not just do you pay attention or not; it's knowing what to pay attention to, when to pay attention, what's important about what you're paying attention to, avoiding distractions, and staying attentive. There are a lot of pieces involved in that one area—go ahead.

Diane Dempster
I up my sanity score. Observation, action, memory, focus, emotion, and energy are the six.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Excellent. I just want the record to reflect that you got my working memory—all of them. Elaine, you did this work a while back; it's finally stuck in you guys—our own model. I used to keep it up on the wall of my office because I couldn't remember our own model for like five years. So...

Diane Dempster
Well, and my brain's 62 years old, so things just keep falling out the back end every day.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
We are having a really cool conversation about school success and executive function, and we've talked about the emotional piece of executive function, the organizational piece, and introduced all the different areas of executive function and all the ways that challenges can come about. Where do you wanna go from here, Di?

Diane Dempster
Well, I think the thing I wanna introduce is how to figure this out, cuz we were talking before the break about really getting clear on what the struggle is and then getting clear about what executive function challenges might be related—maybe more than one—that go along with that struggle.

So, there are those two inquiries. And what I wanna talk about is how to do that and how to involve your kid in that process. When your kids are younger, you might be able to just watch, observe, and infer. But one of the most beautiful parts of this process is if you can work with your kid to go, "Here's what you're really good at. Here are your strengths."

What are some of your challenges? How does it tie in? Where are the places that you don't have any problems at all? And where are the problem areas that you're really struggling with? So you're dialoguing with your kid—not in a, "Oh my gosh, we gotta fix all the stuff that's broken" mode—but recognizing that everybody has challenges and strengths.

And then the moral: the easier it is for us to unearth those, the easier it is for us to lean into them. I'm thinking about what you said about our kids being specialists in a generalist world. One of the great pieces of medicine for that is helping your kids know what they're great at, and then helping them understand, "OK, I'm not great at basketball, but I'm good at this, and I'm not bad at that." And that sort of thing. You look like you want to add something.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, I just think what's coming to me is that I'm with you on the strength-based approach. It's so important, and I wanna go back to what you said a minute ago: "We as parents have to be careful not to pathologize the gaps," right?
These kids struggle with executive function challenges; that's just the nature of it all. Kids struggle with some area of executive function challenges because their executive function is not fully formed until their mid-twenties. When we label it as such, our kids can resist because it feels like we're telling them what's wrong with them.

So we really wanna be careful not to make it a case of "we have to fix this problem you have." Instead, let's focus on where your gifts are, where your strengths are, what's frustrating for you, and where you're struggling. Would you like some help working with that?

Diane Dempster
Well, I think it's an important clarification because a lot of times parents will say, "My kid has delays in executive function." I've gotta catch them up by just saying that on our podcast. But the reality is, if you have a child who is delayed in executive function, they may be ready to learn those skills associated with executive function, or they may not yet be ready—and we need to accommodate those executive functions.

I mean, kids in U.S. public schools often have 504 plans or IEPs designed to accommodate those challenges and delays in executive function. And we talk all the time with parents about how to create accommodations at home with homework, with chores, with helping around the house—whatever it is.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Getting along with siblings—whatever it is.

Diane Dempster
What are the accommodations we need at home? The bottom line is that it's not about fixing a broken executive function. And remember, commercial ADHD meds, for example, are not designed to fix executive function challenges. That's not what they do.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So that was one of the biggest awarenesses when we figured that out and learned that we were both like, "Wait, what?" Learning that we'd been doing this for years before we understood it.

Diane Dempster
And how many parents do I talk to? It's like, "My kid's struggling in school, and they're on ADHD meds. Shouldn't they be fine?" And it's like it doesn't work that way.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, can I say what you just said—again, more directly? The purpose of medication for ADHD is to reduce some of the symptoms, maybe enhance the ability to focus, maybe reduce emotionality, or improve mood.

OK. None of those things are gonna teach a kid to organize their backpack. They make the kid more receptive to learning to organize their backpack, or perhaps less frustrated with being expected to organize it and learn how to do so, but they won't actually get them to organize the backpack.

Diane Dempster
I'm gonna just tweak the language you said, cuz you said they might make them more receptive. It's not that they allow them to be more receptive. Yeah, it's like creating an environment where they might be more receptive because they'll be a little more job-regulated or able to focus more. I mean, those two pieces—emotional regulation and focus—will sometimes create an environment where the kids are like, "Oh wait, I'm calm enough; I'm avoiding distractions enough that I can focus with you." They learn this skill in a different way than if they had a million things going on.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Huge. So executive function is a challenge that needs to be managed no matter what for all of our kids, and especially kids—and especially when it comes to school success, right? Yeah, and understanding where the challenge is showing up. I've got one kid who can organize herself, but getting activated—getting started—requires a lot of help. Another kid is willing to sit down and do the homework, but it would take two hours because they can't organize themselves around how to get it done.

Diane Dempster
Again, another thing that—because we talk about this so much and I always forget to bring some pieces—is that I'm remembering that workshop we did in London 10 years ago.

Oh my gosh. Long day. And it was one of the first times we were in front of a group of educators, and we said to them, "OK if you think about school success and what percentage of it is intellect—what percentage is executive function?"

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
We asked to show of hands. Yeah, right.
"What percentage of school success do you think is an executive function?"

Diane Dempster
And they said, "About 75% of school success is about executive function." So going back to the beginning—even a really smart kid, if they're delayed in executive function, their ability to be successful in school is gonna be completely different because they're already starting with a delay. And I'm not saying it's a deficit, but technically a delay becomes a deficit in many ways.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, it can. And what they don't wanna hear from you is, "Because you have this deficit, therefore you have to ..." Right? So we, as the adults in their lives, have to know that this is there, and figure out how to accommodate, support, and enroll them in catching up without making them feel like they're broken or that something's wrong. It's a very delicate dance when you think about it that way.

Diane Dempster
I think it's important, as you were saying, that without them feeling like something's broken or wrong. I was talking to another family this morning, and they were discussing whether or not to share their child's diagnosis—they really didn't want the child to feel labeled and blah, blah, blah.

And I think the reality is that these kids are struggling, and we always say, "If we don't help them understand what's going on underneath the struggles, they're gonna create a story." The story they're gonna create is often gonna be much worse than, "Oh, your brain's wired differently. Oh, you have anxiety. Oh, you have ADHD." It happens, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Because without the explanation, what they make up is that they're lazy, crazy, or stupid.

Diane Dempster
Well, and again, you said it's an explanation—and that's what's important about that for me is that we're not talking about an excuse, right? We're talking about the tool that an explanation gives you, which is that you get to meet your kid where they're at.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Really, at—yes.

Diane Dempster
Really at——and then challenge them from there in incremental steps, which is what we all wanna do. We wanna help our kids become more advanced, more independent, more whatever. We want them to grow, change, and expand, but we're doing it from where they are instead of saying, "Oh, you're in ninth grade; you're supposed to be here." That is exhausting for them, and frankly, it's gonna be exhausting for you as a parent.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. All right, so what do you feel like we're taking away from this conversation?

Diane Dempster
I feel like we need to keep talking about this. Maybe we need to do another episode.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, it's really, it's, I mean, you know, so here's what I wanna synthesize for this conversation: If we're looking at the relationship between school success and executive function, what we want you to understand is, first of all, it has nothing to do with how intelligent your kid is at all.

Second of all, if you're listening to this, chances are the kids you care about are struggling with some aspects of executive function—if not all six, then at least a few. And third, we want you to really understand that the better we can understand what the gaps are—where their delay may be or what they're struggling with—the better we can support them.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
One of the mistakes I think we make a lot as parents and educators is holding kids accountable to the end goal, to the outcome, instead of really working with them on the process of learning how to manage their executive function. So instead of saying, "You're gonna get this reward if you get an A on the test," we really wanna focus on acknowledging and rewarding every time you study 10 minutes prepping for that test. Let's sit down and look at what test prep looks like for you and help you do it in a way that works for you. It's about getting really granular in some ways—but what's in it for the kid is not to achieve the end result but for them to feel good about being in the process of learning and feeling successful in that learning environment.

Diane Dempster
Well, and I think the things I would use to bottom line this are, first, you gotta really get clear on what the struggle is. And there's work to really see what class or situation—homework versus testing—what's working and what's not. So, what's their struggle specifically, and then what is the executive function challenge underneath it (or challenges)? And then the third piece is: how do I partner with my child to work on this together rather than being in that "OK, I've gotta fix this for my kid" mode?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Beautiful. And, and I guess here's the other thing I'll offer. For those of you listening who are in our programs, such as Sanity School and Module Two of Sanity School, there's a worksheet on executive function that really helps you understand this and guides you through working with your kid to identify their strengths and challenges—without pathologizing them or making them feel really bad about it. So it's a great worksheet in Module Two. If you've got access to that.
Awesome. All right, folks, you're amazing. Thanks for tuning in as always. Take a minute—what are you taking away from today?

Diane Dempster
Yeah, yeah. Let's reflect. What's your nugget? What's your A-ha? What's your insight from our conversation around school and executive function?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Next up on the podcast is gonna be Hilliary Giglio talking from Restful Beginnings about sleep. Great conversation. And, as always, friends, thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids by being here, tuning in, listening, and being a conscious parent. You make an amazing difference.

Diane Dempster
See you next time.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Bye, y'all.