PARENTING WITH IMPACT PODCAST
Why Won’t My ADHD Kid Just Start? A New Theory of Motivation (EP279)
Ever look at your ADHD kid and think, “I know they want to do well — so why can’t they just get started?” This week, cognitive engineer and ADHD coach Jeff Copper joins Elaine to break down a completely new way of understanding motivation and executive function. You’ll learn why “unmotivated” is almost always the wrong word, why extra time isn’t the accommodation you think it is, and why talking things through with your kid might be one of the most powerful tools you have. This one’s dense — you may want to listen twice. Tap in for a total shift in how you see effort, motivation, and what your ADHD kid is actually up against. Download a free tipsheet "The Parent's Guide to Motivating Your Complex Kid" to help your child find the motivation to do... anything and everything! Why Won’t My ADHD Kid Just Start? A New Theory of Motivation Amazon Music | iHeart | Spotify | Apple Podcasts | TuneIn | Youtube Jeff Copper is a cognitive engineer and ADHD coach. He is founder of DIG Coaching Practice, Attention Talk Radio, and Attention Talk Video. He holds professional designations from ICF and PAAC and certifications from ADD Coach Academy and Coaches Training Institute. A member of ADDA, CHADD, ACO, PAAC, and ICF, Jeff developed Cognitive Ergonomics From the Inside Out®, a radical departure from the current ADHD intervention paradigm. In recognition of his contributions, he received the ACO’s 2022 Professional Excellence Award. Jeff continues to innovate in attention coaching, helping individuals understand and manage their ADHD challenges.
Elaine: Welcome back to another episode in the Parenting with Impact podcast. If you’ve ever looked at your child and thought, “You know, I know they wanna do well, but why can’t they just get started?” Then this episode is for you. Jeff Copper is gonna join us to unpack a whole new way of understanding motivation in the context of executive function, and it explains so much. Welcome, Jeff, to the Parenting with Impact podcast. I am thrilled to have you here. Jeff: Thank you so much for having me on. Always love Elaine: It’s Always a pleasure. You guys, Jeff and I have known each other a very long time, and we have been collaborating and playing with each other in this ADHD space for longer than I think any of us would like to admit at this point. and one of the most fun parts of the work that we get to do is that we are constantly thinking about how people think and process and take action, and how ADHD and executive function challenges show up and what the impact is. And, Jeff and I are two of those people who are constantly kind of deconstructing and reconstructing and figuring out how to help people, navigate, understand it well enough to navigate it. So I am always thrilled to be in conversation with you, Jeff. It’s so good to have you. And this conversation is one that’s gonna get a little bit deeper to the heart of one of the issues that comes up for parents all the time, the, “Why can’t I just” situation, right? Yep. Why can’t I just? So Jeff, introduce yourself and, and your work, and then let’s dive in. Jeff: So, Elaine, thank you for having me on. I’m here to talk about a new way of looking at motivation, and I’ve been doing this for 19 years, and I gotta tell you, this is by far the best thing that I’ve ever come up with. I am Jeff Copper. I call myself a cognitive engineer and ADHD coach. I developed a new field of engineering called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out. Today was derived from that. I don’t wanna really spend a lot of time talking about me, ’cause I’m really excited about this new way of looking at motivation, particularly for parents, because it makes so much sense. And I will tell you, when you talk about motivation, it’s very emotional issue, and I’m gonna say, you’re probably gonna have to listen to this once or twice to really absorb everything, because we’re gonna cover a lot of material in a very short period of time. But in short, we’re gonna talk about motivation in a way that’s very different, ’cause nobody actually talks about motivation and considers executive functioning as an impairment and understand its impact on motivation. Make sense? Elaine: It makes sense to me, ’cause, you know, we have a framework that we’ve been teaching for a lot of years. I think I’ve probably come on your radio show and talked about our framework for identifying motivation, motivators for people with complex issues and executive function. And what you’re really speaking… So we have the PENCH framework. I’ll put that in the show notes. What you’re really speaking to is what makes motivation challenging for people with ADHD. Is that fair? Jeff: What I’m actually gonna say is I’m gonna change our conceptual understanding of motivation. Motivation is less about emotion and more about engineering. Motivation can be engineered Elaine: Okay, so let’s dive in. So we’ve heard parents say things like, “They’re just not motivated to.” They’re just like, we almost assume they don’t care. This is for kids or adults. And so what you’re saying is that we’re kind of interpreting that as an emotional issue. Jeff: 100%, because that’s a false observation. Everything you’ve ever done in your entire life, you did it because you’re motivated to do, and everything you haven’t done when you could have done it, if you didn’t do it, you were actually motivated to do something else. To say somebody’s unmotivated is not an objective, it’s a subjective. So if somebody’s just sitting on the couch, they’re motivated to sit on the couch. You have to do this, it’s important, because if you’re saying that somebody’s not motivated, a kid, all you’re doing is shaming them. You have to admit they’re motivated to sit on the couch. Now, you might think that they should be doing their homework, and maybe that’s true, but you can’t really manage that until you sit there and say they’re motivated to sit on the couch right now. Elaine: Or they’re motivated to be on video games, or to swipe from screen to another screen when you walk in the room. Or to not put away their laundry. Or to not brush their teeth. Right? So there is actually a choice that there is, a motivation that they have to something else. Elaine: Maybe it’s not putting the effort in. Jeff: I’m gonna talk about this, so if it’s okay if I can launch off into this, ’cause we got a lot to cover. This is built off Dr. Russell Barkley’s model of executive functions. He defines, says look at the brain as a two-level system. You have your automatic brain, which is your more primitive brain. That’s your emotional, more dopamine-seeking brain. And you have your executive functioning brain. Think of it as two brains, okay? Now, we’re gonna take a look at motivation differently. Each brain has a motivational force, okay? Everybody thinks as motivation currently as just motivation, but we’re gonna split it up, align with Dr. Barkley’s model. So the primitive brain, its motivation is emotional based off of your primitive urges, the urge to seek pleasure or to escape discomfort. It’s really simple. Dopamine . To move away from things that are really uncomfortable. Like, I ask people, you know, “Have you ever noticed you change positions in bed at night?” You’re doing that because you’re uncomfortable. You’re switching positions. To understand the primitive brains, it’s really your urges. That’s how it manifests in everyday life. And most people don’t pay attention to your urges, but it drives 99% of everything that you do. So at that level, we have your primitive brain. Its motivational force is driven by the emotional desire to seek pleasure, escape discomfort. Now we have the executive functioning brain. It too, it has motivation, and it too is based off of emotions. The emotional desire for accomplishment or achievement. Okay? The only thing that you have to understand here that’s really important is that the executive functioning brain, while motivated for accomplishment and achievement, has to endure a level of discomfort in order to get there. It’s effortful. So I like to convert this in a way that, is a little bit different. I used to swim four hours a day. I was ranked internationally in the world in the 100 backstroke. When I would stand over water’s edge, the water temperature was 79 degrees. To dive into that, I had to experience a level of discomfort at first. Once I swam, I would get warmer and be fine. But literally, I’ve driven 30 minutes, gotten to water’s edge with my suit on, looked down, and turned around and went home ‘ Elaine: Cause I just don’t feel like being uncomfortable Jeff: Exactly so what I’m introducing, what’s very different is that we have two brains with two motivational forces that are in competition to see who wins. Make sense? Elaine: Beautiful. yeah, the only question I have is that there is an emotional component to executive function brain. So how does that come in? Jeff: It’s the emotional desire for accomplishment or achievement. Elaine: Okay. And everybody has that. Jeff: Exactly. Elaine: So there are lots of parents who think, “My kid’s not trying to achieve anything. They don’t wanna accomplish anything.” So how do you… Jeff: But that’s… Yep. I’m sorry, I don’t mean to cut you off, ’cause we’re getting ready to make a turn right to that. Elaine: Okay. Go. Jeff: Okay. Depending on where you go, I like Dr. Barkley’s model, and I’m only getting a difference in model, because executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we use to work over time towards a goal. In simple form, I like to say they’re mind tools that we use to solve problems. Okay? By the way, problems have two components. They’re multifaceted, and there’s some level of ambiguity to it. Like planning, managing time, making decisions. These are all multifaceted and ambiguous. In fact, Elaine, we had done a previous interview on this. I think you aired it, like, last February or, November, December with regard to that. But understand when you’re judging or daydreaming and stuff like, you’re not, or walking, you’re not using executive function. We’re using it specifically to solve problems. And again, problems are multifaceted and ambiguous. So what people don’t think about when they think of this is an impairment is a reduction in ability or the loss of efficiency. In other words, executive functions are not functioning at the same level as a neurotypical. My eyesight is impaired. It’s not functioning well. By the way, impairments can’t necessarily be fixed. We typically accommodate them. In this situation, I’m gonna use my eyeglasses. So when we look at this system as a two-four system, and we’re just gonna do it, we’re gonna say the executive function brain is 50% impaired. It’s not that great, but the math works. It makes it really easy. If we look at it like that, imagine if it takes one unit of motivation, one unit of effort. For a neurotypical, they would produce one unit of outcome. Okay, that makes sense. Person with ADHD, if they exert one unit of motivation or one unit of effort, they get one half a unit. Not a whole unit, they get a half. That means that they have to exert twice the motivation, twice the effort to get one unit. Well, when you think about that, that’s interesting because now they have to put more effort, and there’s an emotional toll of that extra effort. It’s a cost. So when you have these two motivational forces that are competing to see who wins, the extra effort that’s higher for the executive functioning brain is an emotional cost, and it tips the scale in favor of the automatic brain. Make sense so far? Elaine: It does. Jeff: So let’s take that back to the swimming metaphor. Imagine metaphorically, for a neurotypical, the water temperature is 79 degrees, but it’s 69 to me. That’s a big difference. Back in the day when I swam, my body fat was, like, a little bit over four. I wouldn’t get in the water if it was under 75, much less 59 degrees. It’s the same Jeff. I’m motivated at the same level. It’s just the cost, the pain that I have to endure is greater. And so what I’m arguing is that people with ADHD, when they actually do something that’s on par with a neurotypical, they’re not motivated. They’re more times motivated because they had to make up for that impairment. So I’m gonna pause there to see if this makes sense or you have any questions. Elaine: Yes, and it’s a perfect time for us to pause ’cause we’re gonna take a quick break, and we’re gonna come back, and we’ll let people process for a minute what they’re saying. But if we can bottom line what I think I just heard in that last piece, is that when people with ADHD and executive function impairments do something, they’re actually exerting more effort to do it, and you’re kind of creating this equivalence between effort and motivation. Jeff: Yes. Elaine: So they are actually more motivated even though sometimes it looks like they’re less motivated because it requires so much more for them to get anything done. Jeff: They have to make up for the impairment. They have to make up for the extra difference. Elaine: Beautiful. All right, let’s take a quick break, and let’s come back and see what we’re gonna do with this Welcome back, everybody. I am in awe always with the thought process that my colleague and friend, Jeff Copper, has put into understanding ADHD executive function, motivation, accomplishment, and effort. We have started to talk in the last few years about effort in ways that we really didn’t in the early years. So what Jeff has kind of put to us up until now in this conversation is that we’re, we’re dealing with two brains, the primitive brain and the executive function brain, and they kind of work at cross purposes a little bit. And that, executive function, in order to solve problems, we have to deal with something that’s multifaceted and ambiguous, so that can be a challenge for people with ADHD. And for those people with ADHD and other executive function challenges that, that capacity, the executive function capacity, is actually impaired, and it can’t be repaired. We have to either accommodate it or we have to remediate it and we have to support it in some way. And so when people with executive function challenges actually do what’s expected of them, what they’re, you know, what’s required, et cetera, they’re actually putting in more effort than the average person and are more motivated, not less. Exactly. That kind of capture where we are up until now? Jeff: Yeah. I’m gonna synthesize it. The key to this is an impairment. If my eyesight is impaired, right? If I’m trying to read something without my glasses, I’m squinting, I’m straining, it’s taking a lot of effort for me to figure out what’s going on, where is, with the glasses it would be easy. And it’s really important that we have to understand this is an impairment. If you are blind, right, you have Braille. If you’re deaf, you have hand signs. My glasses. High blood pressure, medications, impairment. We have to understand this is an impairment, and when we do, we have to sit there and say, “How can we accommodate it?” So when we take a look at… Elaine: All right, just real quick because there are people who are hearing you use the word impairment and thinking I don’t want my kid to be broken. I don’t wanna see my kid as broken. I wanna take a strength-based approach to managing their ADHD.” Jeff: Yep. there’s a lot of people out there who really want ADHD to be a gift or they want it to be different brain wiring. Don’t get me wrong, I believe that there’s hope, but the people that I’ve coached is that the more that you deny that it’s an impairment, the longer you suffer. The more you accept it and kind of go on, the quicker and more fulfilling your life can be. Because the impairment is invisible, it’s not tangible, so we like to think that we can do that. And all too often, I find people saying, “I feel like I’m an imposter.” And I’m going, “Well, you are, because you have an impairment. You’re trying to act like a neurotypical when you’ve got this impairment. Do you have any idea how much energy it takes to try to be somebody that you’re not?” And I know that probably some people are really getting emotional right now with regard to that, but I’ve done dozens of interviews with Dr. Barkley. And by the way, he’s aware of this, and was very complimentary of it. But there’s a lot of people who know a lot about ADHD, yet they suffer because they don’t really wanna own it. And as we do a lot of trying to have conversations to get people to own it, because it’s profound, the people that finally acquiesce and kind of go do it. And so it is very emotional. I don’t deny it, but I really just wanna say if we look at motivation through this lens, it just changes some stuff. Make sense so far? Elaine: It does change some stuff. And, and part of what I’ve come to understand is that when we’re looking at what the world expects, and The reason it’s an impairment is because the world is designed to function in a certain way, and what we’re trying to do as, as humans in this world is to kind of make ourselves work in the world as it’s designed, and it’s designed for neurotypical brains, not for neurodiverse. Jeff: Yes. And I’m trying to give a lens to this so that people can… cause there’s lots of really good accommodations been around for thousands of years that are acknowledged, ’cause nobody’s brought tangibility to it. We’ve got this two force system, and in neurotypicals, there’s parity between the two. So from the engineering… Elaine: So I don’t know what two force system means. Say that differently. Jeff: We have two brains. Both with its own motivational force, so they’re in competition to see who wins, who’s dominant. In a neurotypical brain, there’s a equilibrium between the two. They cooperate in a level for them to get things accomplished. But when we go to the ADD brain, we have the impairment, which is requiring more effort, more discomfort to do some things. So the question is, how do we bring equilibrium? How do we bring this back to a level? Well, you might think, how about reward? I mean, not rewards. How about willpower? Well, when you think about it, willpower is amping up your emotion, using your emotion to amp up your emotion in order to get through something. In other words, you’re not relieving the impairment, you’re just using a lot of energy, a lot of emotional energy to will your way or force your way through it, and it’s really not sustainable. I’ve never seen anybody who could use that as a long-term strategy, so we’re gonna take that off the table. In rare situations, get work, but it’s not something due every day. Another one is rewards, and I was at the nation’s Capitol,with some lobbyists last October, and I was at the Capitol, and I imagine somebody didn’t have the use of their legs. They didn’t have a wheelchair, whatever. In order for them to go up the Capitol steps, I might give them a reward for each step that they go up. Now, what I’m doing is I’m giving them a reward to amp up their emotions to endure the discomfort of crawling up, like on their hands, if you will, to the next step. And as I do that, I might inch their way to get all the way up to the top. They’ll get there, and like, “Okay, I got there,” celebrating. But to do it again, that required a lot of effort. It’s likely gonna require that I’m gonna have to increase the reward the next time. This begins to explain why reward systems, sometimes there’s a diminishing return on some of them when you get there. So it doesn’t really bring parity in terms of what we’re looking for. Elaine: So I think what you’re saying is because we can reward them to achieve whatever the expectation is, but it doesn’t make it easier to do it the next time. Jeff: 100%. That’s key … Elaine: homework, put the notebook in the backpack, and then remember to get to school and then just as hard to remember to turn it in the next day. That doesn’t get easier just because they’ve done it. Is that what I’m hearing? Jeff: Exactly. Now, next we turn to accommodations, and because of time, I’m gonna harp on one, just to kind of make a point. One of the big accommodations these days is extra time. When we think about extra time, that’s not giving relief to the impairment, that’s just giving you more time to suffer. I want to reiterate, It’s just giving you more time to suffer. So imagine you’re an adult with ADHD, and you’re given 10 hours to do eight hours of work, right? It’s not relieving the impairment. You’re just exerting more energy over 10 hours. That’s 10 more hours a week, or 40 more hours a month, and you wanna know why you’re burnt out? It’s because we’re not relieving the impairment. We’re giving you longer to suffer. That’s not really bringing parity. What I’m arguing for, and what this whole model is all about, is we need what we call adaptive accommodations. Adaptive accommodations are things that bring systemic relief to the impairment. The idea is my eyesight is impaired. If I wear my glasses, that provides relief. I can read just like my eyesight’s not impaired. It’s not an extra effort. And the idea is we wanna be going towards that area. Now, you and I had done an interview before where I was basically saying that, you know, problems, language was derived for one reason and one reason only, and it was to solve shared problems in the community. Direct oral conversations is the most basic form of problem-solving. It’s been around for thousands of years. This model is making an argument. Because of the impairment, and it’s a problem-solving impairment, that direct oral conversations with somebody with ADD, I’m not doing it for them. Talking through it is an adaptive accommodation that actually provides systemic relief. In other words, it’s not so hard. And by the way, I’m gonna jump to the end and come back to it. In the ’80s, there were people that didn’t need to go to therapists. They didn’t need… They were just stuck. Life coaching was derived for one reason. It’s to help people that were stuck, and it’s built on the Socratic method, the answers to the question. Basically, it’s having somebody ask you questions to help you think through and solve your own problem. Life coaching, it’s been around for years. And so what I’m arguing, if we look at ADHD this way, we look at motivation according to Dr. Barkley’s model, we see a two-four system. We see the impairment. We recognize that we need to provide accommodations. All of a sudden, we’re recognizing that direct oral conversation that’s been around for thousands of years is a legitimate accommodation for people with ADHD, and that’s not something that’s being advocated. But when you talk about people having to go declutter on their own… By the way, decluttering is cognitively effortful. There’s a lot of decisions that are being made. Yet, when you’re talking to somebody about, “Oh, I’ve got this. Where is its home gonna be?” It doesn’t mean that you’re gonna clear it all, but people with ADHD typically go a lot further when they’re having those direct oral conversations with somebody. Again, when we’re talking about, we’re not talking about somebody telling you what to do or fixing you, telling you’re wrong. It’s literally just asking you questions. And so when we think about this, this is kind of a game changer, ’cause society is trying to push people away from direct oral conversations and do it on their own. I remember when the pandemic hit, I thought I was gonna be out of business, but my phone lit up like a Christmas tree. “I’m unproductive. I’ve got motivation problems.” Like, oh, my God, no. You were in an environment where you were collaborating with people. Your accommodation is no longer there. And so I’m trying to make the case that when your child comes home and the, and the teacher says, “Your child needs more independent work,” you’re like, “No, he needs more collaborative work,” which you’re a huge fan of, of Dr. Thomas Brown. I remember in 2014, he said, “As the need for independent work increases, ADHD productivity decreases.” What can explain that? I’m arguing that direct oral conversations helps people with ADHD externalize and problem solve, and they get things done, so it’s easier. So at the end of the day, if we look at this new theory of motivation as a two-four system, we can bring in the impairment that begins to explain a lot. Then we can look around and see, oh, my God, people with ADHD, they do pretty well when they’re collaborating with other people at some particular level. It’s when they’re put in isolation and trying to solve problems by themselves, they look like they have a focus problem, and it is, but it’s really the urge to escape the discomfort of problem solving. In other words, I’m escaping diving into 59-degree water. It’s just too cold. But if you give me a wetsuit I’m no longer cold. That’s an accommodation, and I can move forward. So at the end of the day, this new theory, which is very new, is a new way of looking at it. I think parents, if you take a look at this, and you look at your kids, and you look at sometimes when they’re thriving in groups, all of a sudden, if you get used to this lens, you’ll start to see a lot of stuff that works that you didn’t see before because we never looked at it this way. Elaine: Well, and what really jumps at me, Jeff, is that, you know, we teach a collaborative problem-solving model, right? Yes. Part of the challenge of getting into being able to use this collaborative approach is getting the kids’ engagement and buy-in and willingness to have the conversations with you in the first place, and what you’re really highlighting is when in the past we’ve come to it with solutions that were making it harder, not easier, we’ve gotten resistance. Jeff: Yes. Elaine: So as we begin to understand it from a different lens, and we can invite the conversation differently so that they will be willing to work with us and collaborate with us and talk to us and ultimately advocate for it in the schools because now it’ll feel like it’s helping make it easier for them instead of one more thing that’s making it harder. Jeff: That goes back to what I said at the end of the day, 59 degrees water or 79 degrees water? It’s the same level of motivation, it’s a level of discomfort. And I’m arguing is that if you engineer the environment, give me a wetsuit, all of a sudden I have motivation. It’s not because I’ve amped up my emotions, it’s the accommodation has relieved my discomfort. And it changes… Elaine: And from a parent’s lens… From a parent’s lens, that means being able to get into the conversation with your kid so that you actually are able to help ease the discomfort. Jeff: Yep. And you’re teaching that in the coaches model with parents to help parents learn to engage in asking the questions, the curious questions. Now, we’re talking about kids that may be 13, 14, their brains are not as developed, and so there’s a little bit of stuff. But, the fundamentals that we’re talking about is all pointing to what you’re doing, and that is to work with the kids. Even sit down and saying, “You’ve gotta write this paper. Tell me, what’s the story about? What are you gonna write about?” You’re asking coaching questions, and try to engage the kid to actually think out loud about what the storyline would be. And you go, “Wow, that really makes a lot of sense right now. Do you have the words to do that?” Again, that is an accommodation that’s happening right there, hidden in plain sight, that parents are not necessarily aware. And I’m saying that’s what really works, and it provides relief to the impairment. Elaine: And the kids have to believe that that conversation with you is actually gonna relieve the pain and reduce the effort, instead of increase the pain and increase the effort. And right now, oftentimes we’re going into those conversations with a whole bunch of assumptions and a dynamic where the kids are so hesitant because they believe it’s gonna make it worse and harder instead of easier. Jeff: And I wanna highlight that this is subtle, but this is what’s really cool. If you’re walking in wanting your kid to do it a certain way and act like a neurotypical, damn straight they’re gonna be defensive, ’cause they’re not. So if I can change your mindset and say, “There’s an impairment here. Like, wake up and smell the roses. Don’t try to fix them.” Walk in and say, “They’re not neurotypical. I need to try to understand what’s easy for them,” it changes all the observations. And when somebody’s walking in trying to get you to be somebody you’re not, you’re gonna get defensive. By the way, you’re gonna have anxiety. By the way, you’re going to be depressed. But if you’re walking in and saying, meeting them where they are and say, “Let’s try to figure this thing out together,” they’re no longer defensive ’cause you’re on their side. You’re acknowledging the impairment. You’re saying, When you get something done, my God, it’s so much harder for you. You’re meeting where they are. So there’s a, I think we say a ripple of impact to this concept that plays into everything that you guys are doing at Impact. Elaine: Beautiful. Folks, I know that you were just drinking from the fire hose for the last 25 minutes or so I wanna invite you to take a deep breath. We’re gonna begin to wrap up this exercise, or this conversation. Let me tell you how you can find out more about Jeff. You can find him at digcoaching.com. We’ll have links in the show notes. All of the episodes that he’s done with us over the years will be there. You can also find him at Attention Talk Radio. We’ll put that link in there as well. He’s done some extraordinary interviews. Jeff Copper has single-handedly interviewed more experts in the ADHD world than absolutely anybody else I know, and that includes me, by far. Jeff, before we wrap this up, is there anything you wanna share that we haven’t hit on today, knowing that we’ve given a lot of information? What do you hope the parents will take away from today? Jeff: Honestly, you’re not gonna like this, but ADHD is not a behavioral problem. It’s an executive functioning impairment. Let’s provide accommodations that relieve it, and quit bitching about their behavior. Because if we provide the relief, their behavior will change. If we don’t… Elaine: And here’s the nuance from the impact lens. You need to understand that it, as parents, that it’s an executive function impairment, not a behavioral problem. And you do not need to go to your kids and say, “You have an executive function impairment,” until you’ve built some trust. Because up until then, all they’re gonna feel like is now you’re making them broken and wanna fix them. So you have to know this, and understand this, and begin to shift the way you be with them in order to get their buy-in to being able to understand what they’re really dealing with. Jeff: 100%. Now, can I put one footnote? Elaine: Yeah. Jeff: For our purposes, I had to be… Like, I had to pull this thing together. When I’m talking about executive function impairment, there’s a distinction. When they, people with ADHD, they’re trying to do it in mind, that’s where the impairment is. When they do it out of mind, there’s no impairment. They can thrive. There’s this distinction. So when you have a kid trying to do something all on their own in a room all by themselves without talking, and they’re not allowed to use anything that’s visually, that’s totally in mind. When they’re collaborating and writing things out with maps and signs, that’s out of mind. So just this distinction. When I’m talking about executive functions, the impairment is in mind. We’ve gotta provide relief so people are not doing that alone. So just, I just wanted to… That’s a bigger conversation. It takes more time to understand that distinction, but I just needed to give that context. Elaine: Beautiful. All right. Thanks, Jeff. Thank you for the brilliance you bring always, and for the work you’re doing, and for bringing it to our community. We appreciate it on every level. Thank you. For those of you listening, take a moment and tap in. I know there was a lot of information, as Jeff said at the beginning. You’re probably gonna wanna listen to this one again. What, what’s your takeaway from today? What’s your insight, your awareness, your aha? Like, what are you bringing forward with you into your life this week? Because there’s a lot here, and if you can pull just kind of one gem from it, that can make a big difference as you move forward into your life. And always, if you like what you’re hearing on this podcast, please take a moment to like it, follow it, subscribe wherever you’re listening. Leave us a review. That would be so delicious and, and appreciated. Next up on the podcast, I believe, is gonna be Diane and me, and it’s you know, August, so back to school season, so we’ll be talking something about where we are in the world at the moment. And as always, thanks. Thanks for what you’re doing for yourself and for your kids. At the end of the day, you make an extraordinary difference. So thanks for tuning in, and we’ll see you in the next episode. Take care. Download a free tipsheet "The Parent's Guide to Motivating Your Complex Kid" to help your child find the motivation to do... anything and everything!
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