When follow-through keeps breaking down, the answer isn’t planning harder. In this episode with ADHD coach Jeff Copper, we unpack why executive function struggles come from ambiguity, not lack of effort, and why direct conversation is a powerful accommodation. Press play to learn what actually helps kids and adults with ADHD move from planning to action.

Article continues below...

Want to Motivate Kids?

Download a free tipsheet "The Parent's Guide to Motivating Your Complex Kid" to help your child find the motivation to do... anything and everything!

Find Out How

What to expect in this episode:

• Why people with ADHD struggle to execute plans even when the goal is clear
• How ambiguity, not laziness, disrupts follow-through and problem-solving
• What executive functions really are and how they operate as cognitive tools
• The power of direct conversation for improving clarity, focus, and emotional regulation
• ADHD accommodations that are practical and often hiding in plain sight

Managing ADHD Through Conversation, Not Willpower

About Jeff Copper

Jeff Copper, cognitive engineer and ADHD coach, is founder of DIG Coaching Practice and host of Attention Talk Radio and Video. He developed Cognitive Ergonomics From the Inside Out™, a new ADHD intervention using an engineering approach to address executive function challenges. Jeff holds an MBA from the University of Tampa and credentials from ICF, PAAC, ADDCA, and CTI. A member of ADDA, ACO, CHADD, PAAC, and ICF, he received ACO’s 2022 Professional Excellence Award. His work continues to innovate and redefine ADHD coaching through practical insights and a focus on how minds truly work.

Connect with Jeff

• Website: DIG Coaching Practice
• Instagram: @dig.coaching
• Facebook: DIG Coaching Practice
• X: @digcoaching

Related Links:

• EP92: Pushing the Reset Button to Solve Problems Collaboratively
• EP138: How Do I Get My Kids to Talk To Me? 4 Communication Tools
• EP172: Parenting Paradox: Avoid ‘Fix-It Mode’ for Better Problem-Solving
• EP207: Rebuilding Trust with Teens: Cleaning the Slate Conversations

Our Discussion

Jeff Copper
I was diagnosed with dyslexia in 1972 at the age of 9. It challenged me for the better part of my life. I remember going through school not being able to take college prep classes. I couldn’t take chemistry or Spanish because I struggled with it. I was just trying to get through, with all the tutors over the years. I ended up getting to college really on an athletic scholarship. At that point in time, I threw out everything that I knew and started going on my gut. I graduated. I got a job selling group insurance and pensions. For the first 10 years, I was kind of getting by, but something clicked one day, which is a long story. I got competitive and moved my competitive juices into business and ultimately got my MBA.

To my surprise, I did very well. Most people don’t know that if you have dyslexia, the higher you go in school, the better you do. I was in the business world. I got into some upstart stuff. It’s kind of a complicated story, but at one point, my ex had gone through the mailroom and we were spending most nights away from the house with a nanny taking care of our kids. I said, “I didn’t have kids for this.” So, long-winded answer, we decided I was going to start a business on my own and grow it as the kids got older because I was more entrepreneurial. My ex had an executive coach that was bestowed on her, and she said, “You should check this thing out.”

I started checking out life coaching. Then I had a friend who said, “You should check out ADHD coaching.” I was like, “Really?” They said, “Well, you’re really organized.” I had been diagnosed about four or five years before that, so it was kind of new to me. I got into it, and little did I know how creative life coaching is. To let go of solving the problems blew me away. This job is exceptionally creative. A lot of my life experiences, where I departed from what you were supposed to do and just did it my way, fed into that. My first semester of college, I was taking Sociology of Sport. They thought, give him something he’d be interested in. I hated it. I was in tears. The reading was overwhelming. I remember reading the first sentence of each paragraph in the sociology book, which was full of run-on sentences, and then reading the first line of the next paragraph. That’s all I read. I would go to class, and I did OK.

I remember writing a paper and going to the library. I interviewed subject matter experts to offset the reading and all that kind of stuff. Fast forward, I got into coaching and started my podcast because I can’t read or write very well. That’s kind of what got me into it. It hooked me as soon as I got here. I identify with everybody in the crowd. The creative solutions. My whole thing is, “If the obvious solution isn’t working, chances are you’re paying attention to the wrong thing.” If the obvious solution isn’t working, chances are you’re paying attention to the wrong thing.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
When you say paying attention to the wrong thing, what does that mean?

Jeff Copper
Hopefully, we’ll talk a little later about this program I call cognitive ergonomics. I began to recognize that people with ADHD are trying to execute a plan. “We’ve got a plan. I’ve got a plan.” What I have found is that people don’t execute plans because of problems.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
People don’t execute plans?

Jeff Copper
Because there’s a problem. One of the examples I use is, “I need to grow my business, so I’m going to write a blog on Thursday.” The strategy is to grow your business by writing a blog. The plan is to write the blog on Thursday. But people don’t write it. Why? They know what a blog is. They know the topic. But you have to use executive functions to figure out which ideas in your head you’re going to use, what words you’re going to pair with them, and what sequence of ideas you’re going to put together in a way that’s compelling enough to say it to somebody and get them to change their mind. That’s using executive functions. From my perspective, a lot of the world says, “You’ve got to plan, you’ve got to plan, you’ve got to plan.” What I’ve learned in my coaching is that you’ve got to stop and identify what you’re not clear on. There’s some level of ambiguity, and that’s what’s stopping you. A lot of what I do is say, “You’re looking at it this way, but this is the core issue.” If that makes sense.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. You and I have talked about it. Jeff, just FYI, is the host of Attention Talk Radio. We’ve had a lot of conversations there about this notion of ambiguity and about the value of taking aim. What I hear you saying is that very often in the ADHD realm, people are putting a solution in place without being really clear about the problem they’re trying to solve.

Jeff Copper
Yeah. You said something. We’ve done a lot of podcasts. A lot of people are always focused on the outcome. You guys focus on the process. That’s what AIM is all about. It’s not the outcome. It’s the process that’s going to get you there. So many people are just looking for the outcome. If you’re only looking at the outcome, you’re not actually understanding how you get there. But if you focus on the process, you’ll find the outcome. That’s an example where I think a lot of times people are misguided. They’re not getting there because they’re not focused on the path that will get them there. You and I have always been very aligned on that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. We work with parents and professionals. You’re working with adults with ADHD. What I’m hearing as the subtext is that tendency to start with, “Well, you’re organized. You can put a solution in place,” is missing the mark. If we don’t understand what we’re trying to deal with, then we could be throwing a solution at it. We’re basically throwing spaghetti at the wall.

Jeff Copper
When you make a list of things you need to do, that’s a list of outcomes. People with ADHD can make a list of things they need to do. The issue is doing the things to get to the outcome. I tell this story. It’s a true story. I was coaching a guy one time, and he said, “I need to send my mom a Mother’s Day card.” OK. I had enough insight to know that was just the beginning. I said, “Really? Where are you going to get a card?” He said, “Store.” He hadn’t really thought about it. It was just a throwaway answer.

I said, “What store?” Now he had to stop and think. “Hallmark.” I said, “Really? Which Hallmark store?” He said, “I don’t usually go in that direction.” I said, “How far away is it?” He said, “About 10 minutes.” So it’s about a 25-minute round trip. He said, “Yeah.” I said, “When do you have 25 minutes to go out of your way to get a Mother’s Day card?”

Here’s my point. I was intentionally asking those questions to get him to think through what he needed to do and how complicated it was to get a Mother’s Day card. All too often, people don’t realize it’s that cognitive process, engaging executive functions to solve the problem. That’s the impairment.

Writing a to-do list is the easy part. Doing what you need to do to execute each item is the hard part. People don’t acknowledge that. Breaking it down and realizing, “This is going to take longer than I thought,” that’s where it is. I’m a big fan of Dr. Russell Barkley. To me, executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems. Problems are multifaceted and ambiguous.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Slow down and say that again.

Jeff Copper
Executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So it might be memory or getting started or—

Jeff Copper
There are different models out there. Dr. Thomas Brown has a model that’s more outcome-based and includes emotions. Dr. Barkley talks about self-awareness, the ability to down-regulate your emotions, visual imagery, verbal working memory, and manipulating information in your mind. Those are tools you use to solve problems. I have tools in my garage. I take those tools and build things. We use executive function tools to solve problems. If you look at problems, they’re multifaceted and ambiguous. Planning, managing time, making decisions. When people call me, I’ll say, “I’d say 80% of what you’re putting off is rooted in ambiguity.” They’re blown away. That’s where executive functions come into play. People look at executive functions because they produce a plan. But I’m a big advocate for behavioral training for adults and accommodations, because the impairment isn’t not knowing what to do. It’s realizing that the Hallmark store is far out of your way and you don’t have the time to go do it. It’s more of a thinking impairment.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

So there’s a real emphasis in the way you support adults with ADHD and neurodiversity on slowing down and thinking about, “How am I thinking about this?” before ever—

Jeff Copper

There’s a lot of what you guys do that’s embedded in this. You’re helping parents think through problems. When you’re working with kids, you’re helping them think. You’re making it easier for them to think. It’s often that direct communication that helps them get to where they need to go.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

OK, we’re going to talk about direct communication. My guest is Jeff Copper, and we’re really talking cognitively about the process people use to manage ADHD and other aspects of neurodiversity. When we’re struggling with executive function challenges, it’s not enough to just put a solution or a plan in place. We really have to understand what we’re trying to achieve, what the obstacles are, and break it down so we can create a plan that addresses the places where we get stuck. Is that fair?

Jeff Copper

Yep. Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

So let’s shift. You teased up this notion of language. We’ve had a lot of conversations in the last couple of years as you’ve done work on this new axiom around understanding ADHD. Share a little about your philosophy and framework around language and its relationship.

Jeff Copper
One of the leading views in cognitive science is that language evolved as a tool to coordinate social behavior and solve shared problems.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So language is a tool to coordinate social behavior and solve problems.

Jeff Copper
It was derived out of the need.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

A tool we developed because we needed it to solve problems and coordinate behavior.

Jeff Copper

Let’s say it this way. If we didn’t have problems, we would never have had language. It was born of the need for a specific purpose. “I’m hungry. I can’t kill that thing by myself. I need you to go to the other side and help me corner it.” That’s a shared problem. We’re communicating together in order to survive. That’s the fundamental basis of language. It evolved from that need.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

I’m reminded of a joke my dad used to tell about a 6-year-old boy who didn’t speak. The family did everything to try to get him to talk. One day he said, “The cereal is mushy.” Everyone was shocked because he spoke. They said, “You can talk? Why didn’t you say anything before?” He said, “There was never anything wrong before.”

Jeff Copper

Exactly. When you think about it, language is born of the need to solve problems. Direct communication, face to face, where we go back and forth, get feedback, and work together to figure something out, is the most fundamental form of problem solving. Language is embedded in that process. Working backward, I’ve studied Dr. Barkley’s model for years and added a few things to it. Back around 2010 or 2011, he gave a conference where he argued from seven different scientific perspectives that ADHD had to involve the prefrontal cortex, which is where executive functions are located. He essentially argued that either ADHD involves the prefrontal cortex, or the tests are wrong. He looked at the definitions of executive function and found there were more than 30 variations. So he set out to define it specifically.

I’ve loved his model for a long time because it explains itself. Fundamentally, he says executive functions are a collection of mind tools that we use to solve problems. Planning and all the things people with ADHD struggle with are multifaceted problem-solving tasks. So I take that further. If problems are multifaceted and ambiguous, and planning and decision-making require solving them, it’s no wonder people with ADHD experience impairment. If language was derived from the need to solve problems, then direct communication is actually an accommodation. It’s a universal accommodation. Neurotypical people use it all the time. So do people with ADHD.

Logically, if executive function is impaired, wouldn’t you need more of that accommodation? If my eyesight is impaired, I need glasses. What’s interesting about this idea is that when someone with ADHD struggles in school, what do we do? We send them to teachers, tutors, coaches, mentors. We put them in direct communication with someone. That’s the most fundamental form of problem solving. Executive functions are intangible. Doesn’t it make sense that some accommodations are intangible too, hidden in plain sight? Direct conversations have always been there. What’s interesting, Elaine, is that direct conversations are being removed from society.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

Yeah.

Jeff Copper

I’m kind of arguing that, just like anything else, it’s a continuum. There are people with high functioning who have been around for a long time. But when you increase the burden on executive functions, people on the margins start to get diagnosed. I don’t have research on this, but it would begin to explain why a lot of people are having more difficulty. Fundamentally, what I’m trying to get out to the world is that ADHD accommodations are hidden in plain sight. One of them is direct communication with people. You and I do a lot of problem solving together when we’re working through things. A lot of my growth has come from those direct conversations, not from doing it by myself. I’m trying to get the word out so people can start talking about this and say, “Wait a second, this makes sense.”

I have a lot of people with ADHD who have an emotional reaction because they feel like they should be able to do things on their own. I’ll say, “Let’s go back and look at your successes.” It’s almost eerie. When they review them, their successes usually happened when they were collaborating or getting help from other people. Now, this isn’t 100 percent. There are outliers. But the majority of people with ADHD had success when they were collaborating or supported by others. I did an interview with Dr. Barkley in 2018. He said we spend most of our time getting people to own this. I find people saying, “I feel like an imposter.” I’ll say, “Well, you are, because you’re trying to act like you don’t have impaired working memory. You’re trying to be neurotypical, and you’re not. That’s going to wear you out.” The moment you say, “I’ve got ADHD,” and let go, and allow yourself to get help, it’s amazing how successful people can be. I’ve done it. You’ve done it. A lot of people do it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
There are a lot of things that strike me about what you’re saying. For those of you listening who are either a parent or an adult managing your own ADHD, the core of what I hear you saying is that part of the accommodation is to talk it out. It’s to find the right environment to support you in talking it out. I think about how many times parents say, “I asked them how they were going to do it, and they didn’t know.” Of course they didn’t know. What you’re saying is that they need to be in the process of the conversation to figure it out. If people with complex issues feel shut down, they’re not going to feel safe having the conversation. And in this modern world, we’re having less and less direct conversation.

Jeff Copper

There’s more to this than we can cover here, but I’m talking about problem solving in mind, not problem solving out of mind. If you’re a parent and you’re struggling with a child, a lot of times you’re helping them with homework or other tasks. What’s actually happening is you’re helping them think. You’re making it easier for them to think. What’s working is the talking about it and engaging in conversation, not necessarily the task itself.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I want to be really clear. What you’re saying is not thinking for them.

Jeff Copper
One hundred percent. It’s creating an environment that makes it easier for them to process and think.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So in order to do that, they need a place where they can have the conversation and feel safe, like no one is going to take over. It’s not doing it for them.

Jeff Copper
Correct.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
That’s an important distinction. It’s easy for parents to fall into, “They don’t know, so let me do it for them. Let me tell them.” What you’re saying is they need the practice of problem solving, using language, with help and support. That’s what will help them understand what they’re dealing with so they can learn.

Jeff Copper
I’ve heard you talk about what you do with parents and the coaching voice. Let’s back up for a second. I’m basically saying that even if you’re not a great coach, as long as you’re not giving directions or criticizing, but instead engaging someone in goal-directed thinking, that alone is helpful because you’re in a direct conversation. I’m arguing that’s why coaching is so powerful. You’re teaching parents how to ask curious questions to help their child figure out how to solve the problem on their own. We’re not talking about doing it for them. Sometimes you give a template or a starting point because reinventing the wheel is hard. You say, “Here’s a framework,” and they work from there. Fundamentally, I think the reason AIM is successful is that you’re helping parents learn how to engage in conversations that enable their kids. It’s a relief. It makes the process of problem-solving easier for them. That’s what’s working.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. What I think I’ve learned over the years, and this speaks to what you’re saying, is that people will ask for and accept help if it feels safe. I think both adults and kids run into the obstacle that if it doesn’t feel safe to ask for help, then they’re just going to try to do it themselves.

Jeff Copper
We could do a whole other show about Dr. Barkley’s model. You have two executive functions in conflict: self-awareness and emotional regulation. You need one to have the other. So there’s friction there, and you’re right, most people feel it. Society also sends a strong message that you should be able to figure it out on your own. “Go look at the FAQ page.” I tell people that everyone judges the world through the lens of their own experience. Neurotypical people don’t understand what it’s like to have ADHD. It’s also convenient for society if you do it their way, because then they don’t have to do anything differently. People are being conditioned to believe they should be able to figure everything out on their own. It’s convenient if you go get a PhD on someone’s website so they don’t have to engage with you.

Fundamentally, I agree with you. People want help. There’s another wave happening, where corporate systems push people to just figure it out and do all the work themselves. It’s almost like, “Why can’t you figure this out on your own?” I think that’s starting to have an impact.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And there’s this whole other conversation about reduced direct conversation because technology has stepped in. People are sometimes more comfortable talking to an AI bot than to the people in their lives.

Jeff Copper
It’ll be interesting to see what happens with that. But I want to offer a subtle point. When someone with ADHD has to go online and fill out an application, they have to interpret all the words. Let me illustrate with a joke. A woman walks in and asks her husband, “What’s on TV?” He says, “Dust.” That’s when the fight started. Was it dust or the Flintstones? It depends on how you interpret it. I remember when I was getting my MBA. I raised my hand in a computer class and asked a question. The instructor said, “Did you look in Help for the answer?” I said, “Ma’am, if I understood what they were talking about, I wouldn’t need Help.” This was back in the Windows 95 or 98 days. She said, “What do you mean?” I said, “They don’t define any of the terms.” My point is that direct conversation helps me verify whether I’m interpreting something correctly. If you misinterpret something early on, it can create a lot of downstream problems. People with ADHD struggle more with these subtleties. That’s why direct conversation is so important.

Jeff Copper
There are some interesting connections here. Dr. Thomas Brown said over 10 years ago that as the need for independent work increases, ADHD productivity decreases. That’s an observation. This framework helps explain that. Annie Rogers, the general manager of ADDitude Magazine, wrote in a newsletter that ADHD is amplified or muted based on the environment. If you’re with people problem-solving, that’s an accommodation. I use the analogy of eyesight. My eyesight is impaired. My glasses are a tangible accommodation that help me focus. People with ADHD say they have difficulty focusing. When they have to problem solve in their own minds, it’s harder. It’s like trying to read without glasses. But when you collaborate through direct communication, that’s an accommodation. It makes it easier to focus. I have tangible accommodations like glasses. ADHD accommodations are often intangible. But when you think about this, it lines up and makes sense. Let’s go back to the idea that we’re paying attention to the wrong thing. People with ADHD shouldn’t be trying harder. We should be accommodating the problem-solving impairment. That would make things easier for everyone. It’s all happening in plain daylight. It’s hidden behind misconceptions, expectations, and assumptions. People don’t recognize it for what it is. They just assume someone is lazy.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right. I’m going to ask you a couple more questions before we wrap. But first, let me let people know that if you’re loving what you’re hearing, or you’re fascinated and want to find out more, you can find Jeff at DIG Coaching. You can find him on Facebook at Adult ADHD Coach, on Instagram at DIG Coaching, and at www.digcoaching.com.

Jeff Copper
There’s also cognitiveergonomics.com. That’s a program I have that explains the background logic behind all of this.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I’m going to put that in the show notes because I don’t expect anyone to try to spell it, including me. Lots of resources. Attention Talk Radio is outrageously useful. Jeff has interviewed every leading expert in the world on ADHD at least twice and has become one of the leading world experts on understanding the theory and lived experience of managing ADHD. Before we wrap, what have we not talked about that you want to share? I know you wanted to introduce cognitive ergonomics. Tell us a little about it.

Jeff Copper
I want to be careful with this because a paradigm changes how we conceptualize something. It’s like when we thought the world was flat and then realized it was round. That’s how radical a paradigm shift can be. I’ve developed a new paradigm called Cognitive Ergonomics. There’s actually a field of engineering called cognitive ergonomics, but that’s from the outside in. Mine is from the inside out. It uses Dr. Barkley’s model along with something I built called Attention Scope. It’s a new way of looking at ADHD. It’s not coaching. It’s not therapy. It’s pragmatic. It defines things very specifically. It’s produced insights like what we’ve been talking about today. I don’t expect every listener to be enthralled, but you might be curious. If so, go to cognitiveergonomics.com.

What’s exciting for me is that this was only possible because of Dr. Barkley’s specific definitions. As I’ve peeled back the layers, everything has fallen into place in terms of what I’m doing. In traditional engineering, you can see what’s happening. Here, you can’t see inside someone’s head. But because executive functions have been defined, I’ve created simulated experiences where I can say, “Do this. Did you notice self-awareness?” People begin to recognize how it plays out. For today’s purposes, what’s exciting is that we now have a language and framework to argue for accommodations that are everywhere and not expensive. You come home on a Friday and say, “Hey, what are we doing this weekend?” That conversation happens in broad daylight all over the place. People just aren’t intentional about it. It’s exciting because when you look at the underlying theory, it explains a lot of what you do with parents, Elaine, and why it works. It’s powerful.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
It’s really powerful. I love the idea of empowering parents to go into an IEP meeting and ask for the accommodation of having a conversation with a teacher or aide about an assignment to ensure understanding. Something that simple. Or to have the insight that—

Jeff Copper
I’ll make this quick. I had a woman meet me at Starbucks with her son. He was in his first semester and about to fail out. I could tell he talked a lot. She said he had a time coach. I said, “That works really well when he’s with the coach, but not when he isn’t.” She looked at me like, “How do you know that?” I said, “Because you think it’s the planner. It’s not. It’s the conversation about his day or week. That’s what’s working. Not the planner.” She was stunned. I said, “He should call you up and talk about his day.” That goes back to the idea that if the planner isn’t working, we’re paying attention to the wrong thing. It’s the conversation that helps him get clarity.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

I love it. That’s a beautiful place to end. It’s always about the conversation. Always about the conversation to understand what’s really going on before you start solving problems. Once you’re clear about what you’re trying to solve, then you can get creative. And the way to get clear is to talk it out.

Jeff Copper
One hundred percent.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Jeff, before we leave, do you have a favorite quote you want to share?

Jeff Copper
I’ve got a lot, but my current favorite is Annie Rogers: “ADHD is amplified or muted based on the environment.” It’s blatantly true.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus

Yeah. Thank you for what you’re doing. Thanks for being here. Thanks for coming to play with me.

Jeff Copper
Thanks for everything. I’ve adored our relationship over a long time. We could take pieces of this conversation and talk for hours. I hope listeners got an “aha” and will see the world a little differently.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. For those of you listening, take a moment and ask yourself: What are you taking away from this conversation? What’s the nugget, the joke, the “aha” that landed for your life or your family? It doesn’t matter what Jeff and I were talking about. What matters is the insight you’re taking from it. What are you aware of now, and how might you apply that in the coming week? Friends, thank you for what you’re doing for yourselves, your kids, and your families as you navigate neurodiversity in this wild world. Consciousness and conscious conversation make a difference. Thanks for being here. See you next time.

Want to Motivate Kids?

Download a free tipsheet "The Parent's Guide to Motivating Your Complex Kid" to help your child find the motivation to do... anything and everything!

Find Out How