Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Hi, everyone. Welcome to another episode of the Parenting with Impact podcast. Diane and I are here today to talk about some great topics that often come up with our clients and in our community, and we think they’ll be helpful for you to hear about.

Diane Dempster: I’m laughing because, for those of you listening, you didn’t see me wave, but those of you on YouTube just saw me wave. I just realized, though, that this is a podcast, so most people won’t see it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, today we’re going to talk about rules, agreements, and boundaries. What are they? How do you know when to use them? How do you get your kids to do what you want while staying collaborative in the process? I don’t know.

Diane Dempster: I was thinking about this, and it’s like everyone uses these words almost interchangeably. We don’t want to be the "word police" or anything, but we do want to clarify what we mean when we use these terms, so you know exactly what we’re talking about.

Parents often say things like, "My kids are engaging in risky behavior; I want to set a rule that we can’t do this," or "I want to set a boundary around that," or "I want to make an agreement about this." So, we want to explore whether there’s a difference between these terms, whether there should be, and how to go about using any of them.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And how do you use them to your advantage to improve relationships and communication? Not just as some external boundary or rule, but as we’ve discussed before—systems and structures are important, but they should also be flexible.

We want to use these concepts in a way that supports communication and relationships, rather than something that interferes with them.

Diane Dempster: Well, you just kind of tipped our hand. And that’s really the overarching point: if you’re going to have whatever you call it—a rule, an agreement, a boundary—whatever it is, you want to do it in a way that strengthens the relationship.

Because we know that strong relationships are at the core of what helps us partner with our kids, helping them become more independent and successfully launch into adulthood. All those things we want for them. And it doesn’t mean you have to be your kid’s best friend.

We’re not saying that. There’s a big difference between being a best friend and having a strong, collaborative relationship.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, Diane and I were talking about what we want to discuss today, and I brought up this issue because I was talking to a client about the opportunity to create agreements with their partner or co-parent.

They’ve gotten far enough in their coaching that they’re now in a place where they can create agreements with each other and collaborate on agreements with their kids—without pushback, defensiveness, or all that other stuff. They’re actually doing it collaboratively, improving the family dynamic by talking things through.

You’ve heard us talk about taking aim and designing. We’ll include references to those in the show notes, but sometimes it’s about figuring out where we want to design and what we need to design around. Very often, we create designs around the agreements we want to have—like, how do we want to handle things when…?

Diane Dempster: Well, I was thinking about this, and I had a situation this morning with a client as well. She has an older teen—actually, someone over 18—who’s smoking and vaping. It was really difficult for this mom because every part of her felt like this is terrible, and she didn’t think he should be doing this.

All these feelings came up for her, and we had to unpack it and say, "Well, this is an adult engaging in a behavior that, yes, is risky and, yes, has all these consequences."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: You don’t like it, yes.

Diane Dempster: Right. You don’t like it. So, what becomes your role? I’ve had similar situations before. I’ve worked with parents in California whose kids are smoking marijuana—it’s legal, and they’re old enough.

So, what do you do with situations like this? You’ve got real health concerns, risky behavior, and all of that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, I want to mention that the example I was bringing up was about younger kids, like ages four and seven. So, this is applicable across the spectrum because it’s really about how we find ways to create agreements with each other.

So, let’s break it down and discuss: what are rules, boundaries, and agreements? And I want to make full disclosure—when Diane and I first started working together, over a decade ago, I remember you wrote an article called something like "Rules Rock" or something along those lines.

Do you remember what I’m talking about? It was about family rules, and I remember thinking, “Oh, I hate rules.”

Diane Dempster: I think the reason we use this language is because of my bias: everything should ideally be in agreement.

We want to be in a situation where, even if we’re the ones saying, "This is what I’d like the agreement to be," the other person buys into it. That’s kind of what I would say a rule is—one person saying, "This is really important to me, and this is how we’re going to do it." But it always works better if there’s space for the other person’s opinion to be heard, and if their perspective can be built into the agreement. If you can figure out if there’s a win-win here, then you can navigate it into an agreement.

Of course, there will be times when parents say, "No, this is just not okay," and that could be a boundary. For example, this particular mom said, "I don’t want to be around when you’re vaping," so her request was, "Please don’t do that in the house, period." That’s a boundary with a request. "I don’t want to be around this, so please don’t do it."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So let’s try to define this a little bit. A rule is kind of a limitation that’s established and ideally agreed upon, but it’s essentially an expectation. We try not to have too many rules in our house. When my kids were growing up, we had two rules: don’t be mean to others on purpose, and follow the adults’ directions.

Very simple, and almost everything could fit under those. But rules are essentially expectations for behavior that people know are required. Typically, I would say rules are external. People may not have been part of creating them or may not have agreed to them, and that’s where it becomes an agreement.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, a rule is often something like, "These are the family rules." It’s imposed, and everyone knows what’s expected of them. Does that sound fair?

Diane Dempster: It is. And it may be that the parents collaborate and say, "This is what we want." One rule might be bedtime, and no cellphones after bedtime. That’s often a rule a parent might set, saying, "Look, this is what we’re doing."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I had a rule when my kids were younger, back when cellphones first started becoming common. My rule was, if you want to sit in the front seat next to me while I'm driving, you can't be on a cellphone. That was my rule.

They knew it, and they could choose to sit in the backseat, but if they wanted to sit in the front, my rule as the driver was, no cellphones in the front seat.

Diane Dempster: Well, I’m laughing because I just did a road trip with my partner, and I said to him, "Okay, it’s raining. No naps in the car." Yeah, right. It was like, this is my rule. Technically, it was more of a request. He does have agency and could have taken a nap if he wanted to, but I was like, "This is what I need."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay.

Diane Dempster: Period.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, a rule is kind of an external authority that we know we are expected to abide by. Now, let’s talk about boundaries. Boundaries tend to be something people put in place, to protect themselves, for lack of a better word.

People set boundaries to ensure they don’t cross lines, to keep themselves safe, and to prevent others from invading their space or interfering with their needs.

Diane Dempster: What I’m looking at is that my understanding of boundaries can differ from other people’s, and this is one of the things that people define differently.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes.

Diane Dempster: A boundary is something you will do. Right? So, I wouldn’t have a boundary that says, "You can’t do this." Instead, the boundary would be, "If you do this, I’m going to walk out of the room."

For example, if I have a low tolerance for conflict, which I do, and if everyone is yelling and raising their voices, I might say, "Hey guys, can we calm down?" And if not, I’ll need to leave.

So, the boundary would be that I need to leave and not be in the room right now. But it’s not a rule like, "You can’t argue or fight." It’s about what I’ll do if that happens. And that’s the distinction between a boundary and a rule.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And a boundary is meant to protect yourself.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: You’re putting a boundary in place to protect yourself. An agreement is when, ideally collaboratively—but not always—you come together with another person, party, family, or whatever, to develop and agree on either the rules or the boundaries.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It could be either one. But it implies collaboration, right? It’s not that I’m telling you, "This is going to be our agreement." It’s that I’m offering this agreement, and then someone else gets to say, "Yes to this, no to that," or "This is part of it," so that we both agree to the same thing.

Diane Dempster: Well, and a lot of times, agreements are designed to solve a particular problem.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: So, if the problem is something like phones after bedtime, right? Or maybe it’s more about technology use that one person in the family doesn’t want.

For example, if my kids are on their phones all the time, or if mom’s on her phone all the time, you might say, "Okay, so what should our agreement be regarding tech use?" Is it no phones at the dinner table? Is it no phones after bedtime? How many hours a night? That’s a more complicated agreement.

On the other hand, a simpler agreement might be something like, "Hey, if you load the dishwasher, I promise I won’t correct it, rearrange it, or tell you if I rearranged it."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I often think about one of the agreements my husband and I made when the kids were little. I suggested it, and he agreed: we wouldn't go out two nights in a row unless the kids were with a member of our family.

We created that agreement because it helped me set boundaries around how often I felt comfortable leaving the kids, especially when they were very young. So, I’m going to propose that we take a quick break, and then we’ll come back and figure out how to apply this. Sound good?

[After Break]

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Welcome back, everyone! We’ve been discussing rules, agreements, and boundaries, defining them and providing examples. Now, let’s talk about how to create them, particularly agreements, which is something I think both of us really enjoy working with.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, and I think I want to focus on the agreement aspect because, throughout this conversation, we've mentioned that whether it starts as a rule or a boundary, what you're ultimately trying to do is gain some level of buy-in, which transforms either of those into an agreement.

And I say that out loud because the first point I want to emphasize about an agreement is that just because you have one doesn't mean everyone will be successful in adhering to it every time. I can't tell you how many times parents have said, "My kids promised they would do X, Y, and Z," and then they didn't follow through.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: They didn’t do it.

Diane Dempster: And they don't care about my agreement. And I’m like, well, yes, but we're dealing with complex kids, so they may not have the executive function needed to actually follow through on what's in the agreement. That’s one of the things to pay attention to.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and what I would say is that a really good agreement includes accountability for that. For example, we might have an agreement that my teenager will set their alarm to wake up and go to school, and I won’t come in and say it’s time to wake up.

But then we could add another part to the agreement: If I hear the alarm going off for 30 minutes and you haven't gotten up, how do you want me to handle it? That becomes an extension of the agreement.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What are we going to do if it doesn’t work? And then, what do we do if that doesn’t get addressed? Because if you talk about it in advance, it reduces defensiveness, resentment, and all of that, and allows you to just move forward with the agreement.

Diane Dempster: There are so many different variables. We actually did a whole episode specifically on agreements and what makes them strong. To highlight a few things: Number one is making sure you build in some contingency into the agreements.

The other piece, as you mentioned, Elaine, is checking in regularly with everyone. How’s the agreement going? Do you still like it? Even when you first set the agreement, it’s helpful to say, “Okay, for the next two weeks, this is what we want the agreement to be regarding screen time.

Let’s talk in two weeks. Let’s schedule a time on the calendar and see: Is it working for you? Is it working for us? How are you feeling about it? Do we want to continue with the agreement as it is, or do we want to adjust it?” I think that’s what changes it from a rule to an agreement—our kids don’t feel like we’re putting our foot down and never changing our minds.

Instead, it becomes about, “Let’s talk about how this is working for everyone, and let’s check in in two weeks to see how it’s going.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. So, another thing I want to say about agreements is that they’re a great opportunity for us, as parents, to address things in our relationship with our kids. When we start to notice things that are irritating us, we should pause. Pause... I need help pausing.

So, another point I want to make about agreements is that we talk a lot about "taking aim." An agreement is an opportunity to take aim at things you want to see change, things that are bothering you, or things that feel irksome. This is especially true with teenagers and young adults, but also in co-parenting with younger kids. These moments often present opportunities to create agreements around something.

For example, when I was working with a client, we discovered, through coaching, that there were about half a dozen areas where it made sense for them as a couple to create agreements. We didn’t need to address them all at once, nor did we need to rush into everything. But by capturing these areas, instead of letting them remain annoying, resentful, and irksome, they became clear opportunities to create agreements.

For instance, how do we handle a meltdown in the car? Or how do we manage when someone is “hangry”? How do we address having family dinner while kids have technology at the table? These are all areas where agreements could be made. If we notice them and take aim at each one individually—rather than all at once—we can start creating agreements around each of these things.

Diane Dempster: Well, what I love about that is that you’re not limiting it to just one thing. As you go through the process we teach, the next step is to gather information. So, the next step in creating an agreement is asking, "What’s important for this person in the context of this agreement?" and "What’s important for this person in the context of the agreement?" It’s about gathering different perspectives and understanding what matters to each person.

I’ve had parents do this all the time—going back to the topic of technology, for example. I don’t know why that’s on my mind today, but it’s like they say to their kids, "Well, there should be some rules around technology."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What do you think?

Diane Dempster: Yeah, what are some of the rules you think we should consider having? And if they say, "No, there shouldn’t be any rules," you can ask, "Is it really okay to be up at five or six in the morning after not sleeping, playing games all night?" Or, "Is it?" And if they realize it’s not okay, you’re encouraging them to consider and think about their perspective on what the agreement should be.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and another thing that comes to mind is that what we’re talking about here is often something you can anticipate. It’s an issue that’s going to happen again—something that’s frustrating or annoying that isn’t happening for the first time, and you know it won’t be the last.

These are great opportunities to create an agreement because you can predict that there will be another late night. For example, our response to that was always the "rock and roll lifestyle."

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That was a strategy we used. But you can anticipate some of the typical challenges that come up in family life and begin to create agreements around them. That can be a really powerful way to slowly but steadily improve family dynamics.

Diane Dempster: Which brings me back to another point. If you're struggling with a problem and you're in the middle of it—how many times do parents do this? They say, "Okay, you did this. It’s wrong, and here’s what’s going to happen." That’s actually what we would call a punishment. You didn’t agree to it in the first place, so now they’re surprised. "Wait a second, I didn’t know that was going to happen!" Suddenly, you’ve taken away a privilege, or you're not allowed to do something, or whatever it is.

So, part of this is figuring out what to do in the moment when an irksome situation arises. It might not be the right time to say, "Okay, what do we want the agreement to be?" You might need to step back, recover, and say, "Okay, this happened. It was a hot mess. I don’t want it to happen again."

Then, when everyone is calm—tomorrow, perhaps—you can talk about what the agreement should be around things like bedtime and what time we’re going to bed.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, here’s what just came up as I heard you saying that—it might be kind of cool, right? Punishments, as you said, kind of live in the realm of rules without agreement.

Diane Dempster: Yes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And consequences live in the realm of agreement.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: When there’s a well-designed agreement, everyone knows what the consequences are going to be. That’s a real consequence—it’s not punitive, it’s not blaming. It’s just… I like to say, let the system be the bad guy.

We all agreed to it, so when the system says, "I’m really sorry you have to miss this thing because that happened," it’s not coming from you. You’re on your kid’s team, instead of being the one wagging your finger.

Diane Dempster: Well, are we saying that a good agreement always has a consequence attached to it? Because I 1000% agree with what you’re saying, but are there agreements that don’t have explicit consequences?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I think sometimes there aren’t explicit consequences. For example, when I go back to the agreement I had with my husband about when we would go out and when we wouldn’t, we had an agreement, but there wasn’t a direct consequence if we didn’t stick to it.

However, if we didn’t honor our own agreement, eventually I’d be able to say, "We agreed to this, and we’re not doing it. What do we need to do to shift it?" That was a collaborative approach. But when there’s an expectation tied to someone else’s behavior, you might be more likely to include a consequence.

Diane Dempster: So, consequences could be a tool that strengthens an agreement.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes.

Diane Dempster: Okay.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I think that’s a great insight. Yeah.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, because parents will often say, "But we had the agreement." And I’ll take us back to the point that even if there’s a consequence, it doesn’t necessarily mean they’re going to be able to adhere to the agreement.

I can’t tell you how many times in my house the deal was that the phone needed to be in my room by a certain time. If it wasn’t, they would lose their phone for the next night—and yet, they still had a hard time following through, even though they really didn’t want to lose their phone.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: But then you could be getting the phone.

Diane Dempster: Right, then we can just rinse and repeat.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and also, you could be compassionate. "I’m so sorry you lost your phone," instead of saying, "See? I told you this would happen if you didn’t get your phone in on time."

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It changes your whole approach to the situation.

Diane Dempster: And what that sets up, which is what agreements are all about—and what we’re all about—is that you’re helping your child change their behavior, because that’s really the goal.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And learning to hold boundaries for themselves.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. Long-term, right? And I say that to parents all the time. It’s like, if you’re the one managing the problem today—and it’s a problem they’re likely to face later in life—the quintessential example is getting up in the morning.

If you’re 100% responsible for getting them up, what happens when they go off to college? They either need a roommate to wake them up, or they’ll have to figure out how to manage it themselves…

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Another way.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Another way.

Diane Dempster: Right. So, what you want to focus on is helping your child reach a place of independence and self-ownership by the time they need to be able to do it themselves, rather than just being their "police," whether it’s managing their technology, getting up on time, or whatever it happens to be.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I love this, and it’s time for us to wrap up. But I thought this was a really great conversation. I really enjoyed it.

Diane Dempster: It was fun talking to you.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It’s true, it was! All right, everybody, what are you taking away from this conversation? What insight is landing for you about rules, agreements, boundaries, consequences, punishments, or anything else that’s on your mind right now?

Diane Dempster: And we could be talking about this for a lot longer. I mean, we only had, what, 20-25 minutes? This is one of the core areas we work on and partner with parents around at Sanity School and Sanity School Premium.

So, if you’re thinking about getting some support for yourself, please come check us out, explore the programs we offer, and see if we can be of support to you.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: All right, everybody, take good care of yourselves. Thank you for what you’re doing for yourself and for your kids. You’re making an enormous difference. Bye, y’all!