PARENTING WITH IMPACT PODCAST
Who Are Complex Kids And What Do They Need? (podcast#265)
“Complex kids” are often seen as difficult or defiant, but there’s more going on beneath the surface. They are navigating executive function challenges, emotional regulation struggles, and a world that often expects them to conform to methods that don’t work for them. In this episode, Elaine Taylor-Klaus and Diane Dempster break down what makes a child “complex” and why traditional parenting approaches often fall short for those kids. Tune in to learn how a collaborative, coach-style approach can help your complex child build confidence, develop agency, and move toward independence with support that truly works. Who Are Complex Kids And What Do They Need? Amazon Music | iHeart | Spotify | Apple Podcasts | TuneIn | Youtube Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus Diane Dempster Elaine Taylor-Klaus 
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Our Discussion
Today, Diane and I are gonna deconstruct a little bit what we mean by complex kids. Where do you wanna start, Di?
No, I wanna reflect on this because, you know, when we started Impact 15 years ago, we started as Impact ADHD. It was the center hub of what we were focused on, and then we did this shift and changed our name to Impact Parents.
Wait, wait, wait. Before—you’re going way fast. So it was the center hub, but it was also the one thing you and I agreed we both had in common. It wasn’t just that. I mean, what we realized is that we wanted to be able to speak to an audience, and in my experience particularly, as we went along, your kids had other issues. I was coming into it with a broad range of diagnoses, right? A lot of complex issues. And so the phrase “special needs” never really fit. It didn’t really work. And so when we started with ADHD, it was because that was kind of the Venn diagram overlap for us.
Well, and we met at the International ADHD Conference, and so there was sort of that audience in particular. The parents in that audience were not being served well at all during that time period. They still aren’t. That’s a gap we were really focused on filling. And what happened as we started to serve that audience is, you know, two things. One is that ADHD travels with cousins, and so we know that even if you’re supporting ADHD as the hub, there are gonna be other things that come into play. And as we got further into it, we recognized that the tools we were teaching, the strategies, and the approach were going to work well beyond that little bucket of ADHD. So we changed the language. We started talking about complex kids. We called ourselves Impact Parents. And I think we always say that if you have a complex kid, you know it. I think it’s worth taking this pause today and asking, “Well, what exactly do we mean, and who is the audience that we serve at Impact Parents and on Parenting with Impact?”
So the term “complex” just kind of came from what made sense because these kids are complicated, right? There are all these different things going on, and they’re struggling with various aspects of life. They may be struggling with organizing themselves at home, cleaning their rooms, brushing their teeth, and then sometimes they’re struggling with school or school-related issues, whether it’s social or academic issues. And then we know they’re all dealing with executive function challenges and all the ways that shows up. Social, emotional, behavioral, and life-learning challenges.
Well, and you said this, but I think for me, when I think about what I mean by complex kids, the center hub is now executive function. I mean, yes, there are lots of other things that kids with executive function challenges travel with as cousins, but that feels like the core of what’s going on. Whether it’s situational executive function challenges or more formal executive function issues, I know, Elaine, you taught me early on that there are over 100 diagnoses that impact executive function, plus regular everyday stressors, plus metabolic and other challenges that impact the frontal lobe and our executive functioning. So do you see it as that same kind of hub, that it’s all things executive-function-ish?
Yes and no. As I’m listening to you describe that, I’m like, there’s a yes to it, right? Particularly for kids who are dealing with a wide range of neurodivergences. That’s where executive function comes in. But when the book came out, The Essential Guide to Raising Complex Kids with ADHD, Anxiety, and More—and the secret, everybody, is I wanted it to say ADHD, autism, anxiety, dyslexia, and just keep listing them smaller and smaller, but I got vetoed by my publisher. Anyway, when that book came out during the pandemic, part of the conversation was not just about raising complex kids but about raising kids in complex times. And so for me, complex kids also speaks to what it’s like raising children in the twenty-first century, in a digital age, dealing with technology, distraction, and all the dopamine pulls that weren’t there 30 years ago. So part of the complexity is about the kid, and part of it is about the world we’re living in, which has conspired to make it particularly difficult to raise kids in a healthy, collaborative, constructive way that still allows them to just be kids.
And just listening to you say that, I’m really aware of the fact that stress, overwhelm, distractions, and all the things we’re dealing with in today’s world do impact executive function. So yes, it’s a “yes, and.” I think we’ve been talking around it. And part of what you just said that I think is important is that the support we offer applies broadly. I get parents saying this to me all the time: “I’ve got one kid with a diagnosis and another kid who is theoretically neurotypical,” if there’s such a thing. And the tools we teach, the tools they learn in our programs, are applicable regardless of what your child’s challenges are or are not. They’re just solid communication and parenting tools.
Yeah. Well, it’s coaching tools. Yeah. The real secret is that it’s neuro-informed coach-approach skills, and that’s what we’re about. What we figured out really early is why they work. So what are complex kids, if that’s today’s topic? Complex kids, in part, are kids who struggle with some aspects of their development or whose development is inconsistent or sometimes developmentally delayed. That doesn’t mean they’re not going to get there, but there are delays, as you say, in executive function. The issue is that with that irregularity, it creates challenges for them to perform in the ways we expect them to perform in the world. It makes it harder for them to do the things they want to do or the things we want them to do, or their teachers, coaches, or anybody else wants them to do. So it’s that disconnect between what the world expects and what they’re ready and able to do, and on what timeline, that we’re really trying to address.
And what we’ve grown to understand is that these kids struggle a lot with their sense of self and their own self-capacity. I often say that, as an adult diagnosed with learning and attention issues, sometimes I can’t get myself to do what I know I want to do, need to do, or what’s important for me to do. And so there’s this sense that sometimes I feel out of control with myself. I think one of the reasons we focus on taking a coach-approach with complex kids is because complex kids feel out of control and want to be in control. The mechanisms or ways they interact with us to try to get control aren’t always constructive.
Right. And to build on that a little bit, because the minute you said they want to be in control, I thought, well, sometimes they’ll tell us they don’t care. There are all kinds of flavors of this, especially if you’ve got an older kid who’s gotten into the habit of checking out. I was talking to a mom the other day, and she said, “He says he doesn’t care. He’s checked out.” And when it comes down to it, I said, “How likely is it that your kid really doesn’t understand why they’ve been struggling all their life?” This was an older teen. They’ve decided it’s easier to say they don’t care than to say, “Wow, this is really hard for me, and I’m struggling.” So even if your kid isn’t fighting for control, even if they seem checked out, they may still be struggling underneath it all.
We’re talking about complex kids and what makes kids complex in our lens. There’s this other piece for us about why the coach-approach works with these kids. It’s strength-based. It’s empowerment-based. It’s all the things these kids need. Back to what I was saying earlier, because they feel out of control, we want to help them begin to exercise control in a way that works for them.
But it’s relationship first. It’s focused on helping the other human identify what they want and be able to step into their agency and independence at a pace that feels healthy for them and healthy for you as a parent. So you’re not over-functioning or under-functioning, but really supporting them and meeting them where they are.
Right. So where do we go from here? I think we’ve identified what makes kids complicated. They’re struggling in some way. They’re seeking some way to manage themselves that feels good for them. We talk a lot about accommodations in a school environment, and Diane and I like to talk about how this work helps parents create an accommodated home environment, an environment that really sets these kids up for success so they feel competent and capable, so they see what their capacity is and can begin to feel a sense of agency. Oftentimes, complex kids begin to lose hope and belief in themselves, and that’s the greatest obstacle for us to help them overcome: the belief that they can’t.
Well, and I think that—we’ve kind of talked around this, Elaine—but maybe it’s worth enumerating what these kids really need. Maybe it’s different, maybe it’s not, because of the whole universal design thing, but what do these kids really need, and what are some of the components? I think about help with emotional regulation. They need support in identifying what their goals are without somebody coming in and saying, “This is what you should do.” They need parents who are collaborative and supportive instead of over-functioning or under-functioning. That’s a common pattern we get into as parents. What are some of the other things these kids really need, Elaine?
So I want to slow down what you just said because I think we go through it fast as if we know it so clearly. The first thing you said was emotional regulation, right? A lot of our kids—not every one of them, but a lot of them—need help understanding and learning how to manage their emotions because the highs can get really high and the lows can get really low, and they get very reactive. So we want to help them learn the frustration tolerance of being uncomfortable.
Well, and there are two sides of that because a lot of times we think of emotional regulation as kids getting angry, frustrated, having blowups or meltdowns. Yes, that’s one flavor of it. The other flavor is kids who check out, go into avoidance mode, doom scroll, or play games 24 hours a day. We talk about SODA—we taught SODA in another episode—which stands for shutdown, offense, defense, and avoidance.
And avoidance, right?
So the other side of it is that a lot of times we’re in that reactivity cycle with them. They don’t just need someone to teach emotional regulation. They need to live in an environment where everyone is focused on regulating emotions because chances are, if you’ve got a complex kid, you or your co-parent or someone else in your family may be struggling with the same SODA patterns your child is struggling with. So it’s not just about teaching regulation. They need an environment built around it. We say “commit to calm” in Sanity School.
Yeah. So there’s this energy of creating a space that feels calm, where we’re calm and not reactive. We’re learning to manage our emotions and keeping ourselves out of the way so we can be present to them. We talk about this a lot in our coaching groups. If we’re overwhelmed, scared, worried for them, or frustrated by them, they feel that energy and absorb it. So part of what Diane’s speaking to is that we really need to do the work to manage our own emotions and find the support, resources, and conversations we need so that when we’re with them, we’re focused on them and not bringing our own emotional reactivity into the dynamic.
Yeah. So the second thing I mentioned was—
The second thing you mentioned was goal setting.
Goal setting. OK. So they need someone to help them figure out what they want. The word “goal” can be such a trigger for a lot of us, but these kids want agency. As kids get older, all kids want more agency. Part of what our kids need help with is figuring out what they want and how that fits with what’s realistic for them because sometimes we set unrealistic goals for our kids, and they set unrealistic goals for themselves too.
And it’s OK if they do, as long as they’re working toward them and having the opportunity to learn from the process and figure out what works and what doesn’t. It’s when they set themselves up for failure and we’re not helping them learn from it that things can go pear-shaped. When I think about goal setting, I agree with you. “Goal” is kind of a four-letter word for me, just like “plan.” What’s important is helping our kids see their own capacity, recognize what they’re capable of, push themselves, see their strengths, and play to those strengths. So I think about it in terms of helping our kids develop a sense of ownership and agency over their lives, about understanding what matters to them. I remember having this conversation with one of my kids in late elementary and middle school years who was really struggling with school—not because there wasn’t intelligence there, but because they genuinely didn’t see the value in it.
And when we started having conversations about what they cared about, what it meant to be educated, and what they liked to learn, they could begin to see themselves as advocates for their own learning instead of just “doing school.” It changed a lot because then it stopped being about going to school and doing school. It became, “What do I want in my education?” It became about them instead of everybody else’s expectations.
Well, and as you’re saying that, part of what’s coming up for me is that reminder that this is the long game, right? What we’re really trying to do is help our kids become more independent, help them launch and move forward as independent adults. Part of that is helping them realize, “Oh wait, I get a choice,” but then they also have to figure out what they want. That’s part of the process of getting there.
Yeah. So in that space of goal setting, it’s really more about helping them foster a sense of independence and agency. It’s helping them figure out what’s important to them and what they’re working toward. In the last five years or so, we’ve talked much more about agency and whose agenda it is. Because when you’re dragging kids kicking and screaming toward their own success, you’re only going to get so far. But when they’re truly bought in, when it feels like their agenda and something they want for themselves, you’re going to get a completely different level of engagement and support from them.
Well, and that takes me to the next thing I mentioned, which is that they need us in the right role. We talk about the four roles of the parent: director, collaborator, supporter, and champion. The sweet spot is collaboration and support. That’s where they really need us. It’s about helping them own something or letting them own it while we stay beside them to support them. So many times parents are either over-functioning, which is director mode, or under-functioning, which isn’t really champion mode. It’s more like checked-out mode. They step back and think, “I hope they do OK. Maybe if they fail, they’ll learn. Maybe if they succeed, they’ll let me back in.” There’s this “I don’t know what to do” energy. What kids really need is for us to be beside them, helping them figure out what they need, stepping in when necessary, helping them access resources, and supporting them without taking over.
Well, and as I’m hearing you, I want to simplify that. What it really means is that they want and need us walking beside them instead of standing in front of them pulling them, or behind them pushing them. They need us beside them. We talk a lot in our training about collaboration and support. And you can do this with kids of any age. We’re actually really good at doing it with toddlers and preschoolers because they demand agency. Then they go to kindergarten, the teacher closes the door, and suddenly we shift back into director mode. But what if we looked at elementary, middle, and high school kids as children who deserve agency? How different would things be if we collaborated with them and supported their agenda instead of constantly trying to get them to do what we think they should do? That’s really the shift we’re talking about.
And I think part of that comes from black-and-white thinking. Either I’m in the lead or you’re in the lead. These kids live in what we call the independence paradox. They want to be in the lead because they’re at an age where theoretically they could be, but they need more help than they want, more help than they want to ask for, and often more help than we think they should need. All of that leads us to fall back into thinking, “Well, that must mean we still need to be in charge.”
And as you’re talking about it, it’s making me think about all the work many of us have done around leadership in the workplace. There’s servant leadership, leadership from the front, and all these different leadership styles. Parenting is a kind of leadership too. The question becomes: what style of leadership do you want to bring to your parenting? For us, we’ve really seen the value of a collaborative parenting approach using a coach approach. A collaborative, coach-approach style of leadership is what we invite parents into. It’s really about asking, “How am I showing up, and how is that cultivating my child’s sense of ownership, agency, and growth?” That’s what we’re looking for as parents. And we started this conversation talking about complex kids, but we probably need to begin wrapping it up.
Yeah, I was just thinking the same thing. How do we wrap all of this together?
Well, we started by asking what a complex kid is. And to your point, in this day and age, every kid is a complex kid at least some of the time. Complex kids are kids who need additional support in some areas of development or at certain points in development. They need adults who understand that it’s not that they don’t want to, won’t, or can’t. It’s that something is getting in the way of them achieving what’s expected of them, or even what they want for themselves. Sometimes they don’t have buy-in yet. Sometimes they don’t know what motivates them. Sometimes there’s simply an obstacle standing between them and success.
And then we talked about why the coach approach makes such a difference. We explored some of the key elements of that approach, and then we talked about what these kids really need. They need emotional regulation support. They need help developing independence and agency. And they need collaboration and support.
From the adults in their lives. So what are you taking away from today? What’s your insight or awareness? What’s one thing you want to carry forward into your life? Diane, what’s standing out for you? Anything new?
I really like how we tied it all together. There’s probably some visual model or framework hidden in this conversation somewhere.
So again, think about what you’re taking from this and how you want to bring it forward into your life. And heads up, next on the podcast, we’ll be talking with Diana Clark about family recovery and communication, which is such a rich conversation. If you like what you’re hearing on this podcast, please take a moment to like, follow, subscribe, or leave a review wherever you’re listening. Anything you can do to help other parents discover this space of support, learning, encouragement, and connection means so much to us. And as always, thank you for what you’re doing for yourself and for your kids. You make an extraordinary difference. Thanks for letting us be part of the journey. Take care, everyone. 
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