Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Ari Tuckman is known to many of you for his fabulous books and presentations on ADHD. We have worked with him in many ways. He is also—for many who know—has been the co-chair of the International Conference on ADHD for many years now. We served on the board of CHADD together for many years—this one goes back. So we are really excited to have you back. Old, old home week.

Diane Dempster
Oh, well. Old home. We aren't old, but indeed.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And as often happens, we've known you through several publications of several books, and you've got a new book, so it's a good time to have a new conversation.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
I do, yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
What we often like to say is: how did you get to be where you are now? What brought you—I know you're a psychologist—what brought you to be doing the work you do with families, particularly since your specialty really has been in the space of ADHD? How'd you get there?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
The truth of it is, when I came outta grad school in the late nineties, adult ADHD was just beginning to get some notice, so I fell into it—honest answer. But it very quickly became a good fit for me. And of course, what's hilarious is as time has gone on and I've had contact with old people from various parts of my life—middle school, high school, then college and grad school—I have friends who've told me that they have ADHD, which we obviously didn't know at the time. And then I have other friends where I would—I'll bet my house, like seriously, I would bet my house—that they have ADHD. So even before I started working in any kind of official way, I've always seemingly gravitated toward folks with ADHD.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
So, you kind of find your place in the world.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. I love that. And I will just say that's because we are some of the most entertaining, creative, interesting people in the world—and Diane would also say she's gravitated toward people with ADHD, but maybe not for the same reasons.

Diane Dempster
They're interesting and lovely and engaging and—yes—they fill our worlds, don't they, Ari?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
Yeah.

Diane Dempster
So the follow-up question is: why this book? This is a new topic for you. What was it about the people in your circle or your practice that led you to this particular topic?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
You know, this whole thing of just getting things done comes up all the time. Tons of sessions, people I talk to, stuff in my own life—there's so much about getting things done. A lot of the content out there related to ADHD has some aspect of getting things done or what happens when you're not getting things done—when we talk about couples and families. But I didn't feel like there was one book that was just about getting things done for folks with ADHD, and I wanted to do a deep dive on it—really get beyond the obvious advice and the "top five list" of whatever some person on TikTok is suggesting, and get into all the different facets of what's going to affect your ability to get something done in any particular moment. I wanted to offer more clinical wisdom and the experience and ideas I've gotten from colleagues and friends—like you guys and our other mutual friends—and put it all into one place.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
If you don't mind, here's where I'd really like to go, because I've had the opportunity to review the book. So I actually have some inside experience with it. What really strikes me about it—that I appreciate as a person with ADHD—is the attention to the emotion of what it feels like to have ADHD. We do a lot of work with parents in our community helping to raise awareness that people with ADHD don't feel good about having it. We reinforce that negative cycle and all of the shame—and the shame spiral—and all of that. What I appreciate about your work is the ability to normalize it, to make it matter-of-fact, and then say, "OK, we have to deal with the emotion," instead of compounding it. Will you talk a little bit about what brought you to that perspective?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
I love that you're bringing this up because it's definitely important—and it runs through the whole book. As much as there's all sorts of stuff on how to get more things done, the goal is not to be a relentless productivity robot, where the way to live a happy life, to feel good about yourself, or to even be worthwhile in the world is to be like a machine cranking stuff out. That's not the goal. The goal is to live a good life—doing meaningful and interesting things and having good relationships. Some of that means upping your batting average in certain places—we could all be a little bit more effective, at least. But it's also about figuring out: what are the things you actually want to be more effective in? What are the goals you're pursuing—are they the right goals? How do you begin to cut some things loose and say, "That was a nice idea when I put it on my to-do list…"

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
"Ain't never gonna happen." Letting it go—right—and not be forever haunted because, God forbid, you wrote it down once (which, by the way, is a good reason never to write it down—ever). Unintended consequences. So it's about… I also talk about how do you disappoint other people when you say, "Yeah, you know what? Turns out I'm not gonna do that thing that you want," because that's a part of productivity also. It's a bigger, more balanced understanding. I didn't want it to be one of those just get more done books. And even, like, I spent a lot of time working on the cover. I actually had one cover designer who was really not that good—you get what you pay for. Then I put out more money. I was like, I want an awesome book cover, and it has to convey that this is not a just grind it out productivity book—that there is this compassionate, more humorous part of it as well. And I think he got it right. I think he totally nailed it.

Diane Dempster
I think it's important that so often we're over here doing "How do I get the things done—give me the tips and strategies," and what you're doing is, "Let's take a step back and say, how do you figure out how to do what you really want to be doing?" What do we then use as that measurement, and what makes it challenging to do it in that space? Maybe that's the next place to go. As someone who doesn't identify as an individual with ADHD, I know it's hard doing what I want to do, and I can only imagine all the extra complications. What makes it challenging to get stuff done? I know it's not an easy answer, Ari, but in 30 seconds or less.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
First of all, what makes it hard is there are a lot of potential things—it's not just one or two. It could be the environment you're working in—maybe there are too many distractions that exceed your ability to filter them out. Maybe your meds are off and you didn't get enough sleep. Maybe you're not actually sure what the hell you're supposed to be doing in the first place, and you're hesitant to ask because you're worried that the reason you don't know is they told you, but you forgot and spaced out—so there's that added social part of it. Maybe the problem is you have too many things in total already. It's not about this thing; it's about all the other things. Maybe you need to use your tools a little bit better—how do you use a to-do list effectively? How do you use a schedule and alarms effectively? That's part of it, too. So when you struggle with getting things done, it's because it is hard. There are a lot of potential things. My hope with the book is to put a lot of this stuff on people's radar—give you a bit of a mental checklist: "Is it this? Is it this? What about—ooh, you know what? I think it's this."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
We're gonna take a quick break, and then I have a question when we come back—because that just launched a whole other series of questions. So hang on—we'll be right back. Do you recognize current ADHD interventions fall short? At DIG Coaching, we've developed a new field of engineering and a new ADHD intervention called cognitive ergonomics from the inside out. To learn more, visit cognitiveergonomics.com.

Welcome back, everybody. Our guest is Ari Tuckman, and we're talking about productivity in ADHD. One of the things you said is you want to give people a way to look at when they're struggling with something and say, "What's really underneath it? What's really the cause?" Diane and I use that classic iceberg a lot: "What's underneath? What's underneath what's underneath?"—continuing to drill down until you get to the real core problem. So we're, on one hand, talking about getting to the bottom-line problem operationally, but then there's this other conversation about prioritization. I want to shift to prioritization because if you're not clear what's most important, then it doesn't really matter what's getting in the way if you're not sure what your order of operations is—or how you decide what's important. So talk a little bit about that.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
This is one of those things where there's very much a circle. On the one hand, if it's not clear to you what your priorities are, it's easy to be busy but not necessarily effective. You're doing a lot of things—they may not be the right things—or you're doing a bit of this and a bit of that, but the things aren't brought to closure, which often rounds down to "not done." So it can leave you feeling overwhelmed. But also, feeling overwhelmed and not having the time and space to step back—to really think about, "OK, what is more important than what?" Because not everything is an 11, you know what I mean? So part of this is getting a bit of that breathing room and really thinking about what is more important; what therefore gets pushed down the list; and what gets pushed off the list. I talk a lot about cutting some things loose and making intentional choices to let it go—rather than "the day is done, I guess I'm not getting it done" being the thing that decides what doesn't get done.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I'm listening to you, and I have a particular project in my head that I know I have not gotten back to in many months. I'm an incredibly productive person—I get so much done. And what you're saying is it's not that I'm not busy and effective and prioritizing all kinds of other things. But I'm aware that this other project—which actually is a really big priority—isn't getting done because it's a big mammoth thing. Lots of layers and steps and ambiguity, and not sure where to start—all of that. So sometimes it's not that it's not important; it's that there are all these other obstacles. So, will you speak to what advice you have to offer me—I mean, people like me?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
On the one hand, there's the simple thing of, "I gotta work on my expense report, but I'm just gonna check my email real quick—it's good to be responsive, so I should see if I got any email." OK, that is a good thing to do, but when we fiddle around the edges with all these smaller, cognitively easier, emotionally easier tasks instead, we don't get to the bigger things. I have this phrase: "Don't spend gold on garbage." Those deep-work times—"I've got two hours, uninterrupted"—that's the time to really get stuff done. Do not check your fricking email. Don't do the easy stuff. This is the time to do the hard stuff.

And for a big task like yours: if you wait to have blocks of time—come on, that doesn't just happen. You need to take those times and drop them into your schedule and say, "This is the time I'm going to work on this." Now, that's easy to say, but there's art to it: when do you put it in your schedule, what precedes it, what follows it, what other crises are blowing up, how much energy do you have? Generally, I recommend planning stuff earlier in the day—it's more likely to happen. The day's events take over the things you plan later in the day. But that's the logistical side. There's still the element of when Tuesday at 9 shows up—are you actually going to commit your three hours or whatever?

Diane Dempster
Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that is its own thing.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
What you're—

Diane Dempster
What you're describing already takes you back to the previous step, which is: you've gotta understand what's getting in your way. Those are great solutions, but if the problem is "I don't have an hour in my calendar," it's a very different approach than "I'm constantly distracted by other people's priorities," or "I'm constantly trying to get things off my to-do list because it's easy and my brain likes the easy stuff." It's about understanding what's going on underneath it so you can solve the problem.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
That's exactly it. This is somebody else's line, but I use it a lot: "A problem well-defined is a problem half solved." If the problem is you keep getting distracted with other things, then the solution is, "Let's get rid of these distractions." If the problem is, "I genuinely have too much to do—I don't have an hour," then the solution is, "I need to reexamine my priorities. Is this a time I can do this? If so, what doesn't get done?" If the problem is trouble saying no to other people, then it doesn't matter what you plan out, because other people will cram their stuff into your open space. So absolutely, it is always about understanding first what the problem is—what's getting in the way.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Giving yourself permission to say no to things you thought you had said yes to—and how to do that. Because I think there's a lot of shame that gets wrapped up, especially for those of us with ADHD, in that.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
"But I said yes." There are a few layers there. One is the social-capital piece: "I've screwed up a few things for this person. I have to say yes because I owe it to them." On the one hand, accurately reading social balance is good. But do you owe it to them? Have they said that you owe it? Is this actually going to work out for the best anyway—or are you not going to do a great job because you're forcing yourself? There's also: when the idea came up in the first place, did you stop and think, "Wait, what do I have? How does this fit? Do I have the time to do it? Let me look at my calendar. Do I actually have everything in my calendar?" Are you able to make an informed decision?

There's also a big difference between "I've looked at this and realized this is not a thing I can do, and I'm going to let you know with plenty of warning" versus "I screwed up; I forgot; I procrastinated; I didn't plan, and now, at the last minute, I'm dropping the ball." Those are not the same thing—but they can feel like they are: "Here it is, another place I didn't get it done," versus, "No, I made a well-reasoned decision. I was assertive in telling someone this is not gonna work out well."

Diane Dempster
What you're describing—for someone who has a typical relationship with their past failures—is going to be easier than for many of you who are listening and might be in this second category, which is like, "Oh my gosh, I've screwed up on so many things already. I don't wanna add one more thing to my list. And even if it isn't a screw-up, it's gonna feel like a screw-up."

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
Yeah. This is where that initial people-pleasing and assertiveness comes in. Part of productivity is saying no to some things first so you have the time and bandwidth to do the things you really do wanna do. And let's also be clear: sometimes the thing we do is, "I don't care about this; I'd rather not do it—but I care about you." We do things for each other, so I will be a good teammate. We're balancing generosity and assertiveness—not too much of one or the other, but both. Or even being able to have the conversation: "I know I said I would do this thing for you. I understand why it's important to you. I'm really feeling like I don't know if I can do this. It's stressing me out. I'm starting to worry. I don't think I can do it, or if I try, it'll come at the cost of this other stuff. I don't know what to do—let's talk about it." Even just feeling like you have the right to open the discussion.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
There's so much "the right to be able to open the discussion," cuz as someone who was diagnosed as an adult with ADHD, the lifetime of feeling judged—whether I was or not—of feeling judged. And the people who don't really understand it, who do judge. I mean, you invent all that feeling—"I might it"—but it's gonna be harder. And I'm celebrating it and people are looking at me like, "What are you so excited about?" It wraps back into that emotional field and the shame and all of that. It is—it's fraught, isn't it?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
Indeed.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Ari, I would love to keep talking and we've gotta start wrapping. So let's— I want you to think about what we haven't said that you wanna talk about. Meantime, let me tell people how they can find out more about you. Ari's written a bunch of books—More Attention, Less Deficit, ADHD After Dark, The ADHD Productivity Manual is the new book we're talking about—and you can find all of that at adultadhdbook.com. That will be in the show notes—adultadhdbook.com. As we wrap the conversation, Ari, what have we not talked about that you wanna make sure we talk about, or what have we mentioned that you wanna highlight?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
I'm gonna highlight this: this is a process. Life is a process. Part of what's great about getting a diagnosis of ADHD—or whatever. I mean, I'm going to PT for my shoulder; it really helps the PT if she knows why my shoulder hurts, right? It helps you understand what's going on and what you can do about it. As you continue to learn—for yourself, for your kid, for your spouse, for your community—you become more effective. And of course, life evolves and circumstances change anyway, so life keeps going even if you don't. See it as a process and sometimes cut yourself some slack—and especially look back on your past with all that "woulda, coulda, shoulda," but you didn't know then what you know now. So see it as a process of continuing to learn, continuing to adapt, continuing to try to do the next thing a little bit better.

Diane Dempster
I love how that's giving people hope—even when you're older and you're listening to this and you're in your sixties or your fifties or whatever you are. We're not talking about leaps and bounds, but it's, "Oh, you know what? I really would like to be better at getting stuff done, or feel like I'm saying no better," or whatever it is. You can take those steps—and what a great gift to model this stuff for your kids. If you have kids with a similar tendency to you, helping them learn how to figure out what's going on underneath their challenges of productivity.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
Yeah, exactly.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I don't remember who the thought leader was, but there was somebody who did the math of: if you improve 1% every day over the course of a year, it's like a sum total—I wanna say it was 37%. I can't remember the numbers, but the concept that I hear is reinforcing it's a process and it's incremental change. And little changes begin to compound into larger changes—larger growth.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
Yeah, exactly—bit by bit.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, Ari, do you have a favorite quote or motto that you wanna share before we leave?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
I'm gonna come back to the one I used: "A problem well defined is a problem half solved." I think that is such an important idea—to really focus on understanding before we— It's tempting to leap to solutions. That's all the ADHD advice: "Oh, you should try harder." "Oh, you run late—you should leave earlier." "You should get a calendar." Hold on a sec—let me write that down. Never heard that before. "Calendar." How do— Is that— What is it? How do you spell that? So really understand the process, or understand what the problem is, before you start jumping into solutions.

Diane Dempster
Beautiful. Awesome.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
Could not agree with you more.

Diane Dempster
Ari, it's been so wonderful to have you here. Congratulations on the new book. I know it's gonna be amazing and I hope everybody takes advantage of it. It's out in May, right?

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
It is. It's out now.

Diane Dempster
OK.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Out now, and congratulations. I'm not sure when this is airing, but it will be airing when it is, and the information will be out—and we are sharing it in the meantime as well, of course. Thank you. Thanks for what you're doing. Thank you for always being an amazing champion for our community, and we will see you in a few months—awesome—as you move your life with a little more activity in the state of Georgia. We're excited.

Ari Tuckman, PsyD, MBA
Indeed, indeed.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: To those of you listening, take a minute, check in with yourself. What's your insight from this conversation? What are you taking away from what we've been talking about today? What's your awareness? What do you know now that you didn't know half an hour ago? Or how are you thinking about something differently?

Diane Dempster
As always, thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids. At the end of the day, you really do make a difference.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Take care, everybody. Have a great week.