Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation in the Parenting with Impact podcast. This is going to be a really fabulous conversation I know because I know because I know these two guests pretty well. So I want to welcome Jeremy Didier and Chris Foster, who are lightness and being in so many ways. Like you guys, when you're with them, it just feels like everything is happy. The universe lights up and buoyant and beautiful. And we're going to talk about some kind of heavy, so just know that there's all of this going on. So we are here today to talk about ADHD and complex issues and addiction. And while it's a heavy topic, we're going to hold it lightly. Jeremy, you and I have known each other a long time, and we've talked about this topic a lot over the years because we all have this understanding and theory about the relationship between ADHD and addiction and maybe some ways in which the ADHD and addiction communities don't understand it as well as they might. So we'll see what we get into today. But I want to thank you both for being here and having a really authentic conversation.

Chris Foster: Absolutely. So excited

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And super important. And let's start by telling us what brings you here. Why is this a conversation that you want to be part of or have reason to be part of? Jeremy, let's start with you.

Jeremy Didier: Wow, a great question. I think in my personal and my professional life, I have seen too many situations where people have had undiagnosed ADHD, and they've tried to self-medicate or figure out a way to balance their brain and act normal. And unfortunately, they eventually crossed that line over into addiction, and they still have ADHD. And so then they're trying to manage ADHD and addiction. And they find out that if maybe they've been diagnosed or appropriately managed as a kid or even as a young adult, they wouldn't be in the situation that they're in now. And the link between addiction and ADHD is pretty well established, but the consequences are devastating. I work in the jail sometimes. And I work with people who end up in the system because of things that have happened to them. And it's horrible to know that if someone had gotten the help and the treatment that they needed sooner, they may not have been in a situation. And so, anything that I can do to make people aware of the connection and aware of what they can do to help so that their kids don't end up in the same situation, I'm all on board for that. Chris, what about you?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, beautiful.

Chris Foster: So I'm a teacher. And I have watched kids that have unmanaged ADHD or undiagnosed ADHD go down that scary path. And a lot of my students right now are in their late 20s and early 30s and just struggling to get sober. It has been gut-wrenching to watch some of them because when they go down the slope, it's a pretty fast descent. And so I'm trying really hard as an educator to be there for my students, both current and former, to at least be a sounding board so that they know that there's at least one adult who's not going to judge who is just going to try and talk to them straight, and give them some insights into their little adolescent brains.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So one of the things you mentioned, Jeremy, is that you're seeing a lot of people who end up in an addiction cycle when with proper diagnosis and treatment, it could have been avoided.

Jeremy Didier: Yes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So speak to that a little bit. Both of you are nodding like yes.

Jeremy Didier: Well, it seems a little counterintuitive, right? I mean, it seems strange to think that if someone is struggling, and this is true, no matter where you are in the ADHD spectrum, I guess, whether you're being diagnosed with ADHD as a child or whether you're an adult with ADHD, who has been struggling with addiction, I mean, treating the ADHD makes a huge difference. And I speak from personal experience. I've come from a proud line of alcoholics, many of whom are in recovery, but many of whom, who also had ADHD and had their ADHD been diagnosed and managed, they may have gone a different direction in life. And when our third child was diagnosed with ADHD, the woman that we were working with said, all the research is showing that if you start your child on stimulant medication now, chances are he won't ever struggle with addiction, or if he does struggle, he won't be at any greater risk than anyone else. And stimulant medication can actually help prevent the risk of developing addiction later with someone with ADHD, particularly when there's a genetic history of addiction in the family. What were going to say?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay. So I want to clarify what you just said because there's a lot of information in there that we know well, but there's a lot of misinformation.

Chris Foster: Far too much misinformation. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So too much. So what I heard you say is that people with ADHD are at a higher risk of addiction.

Jeremy Didier: Correct.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That when that ADHD is identified and treated early, it can actually reduce the risk of addiction to the same as a typical population. Is that what I heard you say?

Jeremy Didier: Yeah. That is exactly correct, and there is some research that shows that it can reduce the risk even further.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And by and by treatment, in this case, you're actually talking stimulant medication, pharmacological treatment, or any kind of treatment.

Jeremy Didier: Stimulant medication is what most of the research has been done in. I mean, certainly, the standard of care for treating ADHD is stimulant medication plus cognitive behavioral therapy or executive function coaching.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Or behavior therapy training for parents, right?

Jeremy Didier: Yes, exactly. But for sure, stimulant medication. And the part that's also interesting too is that even people who are in recovery, like people who are going to get treatment, say people who have developed addiction tendencies are struggling with alcoholism or addiction when they check into the facility if they have ADHD, a lot of times the recommendation now is to go ahead and start them on stimulant medication right away because it helps with brain recovery from addiction. And if you don't manage people's ADHD, they're going to relapse and not be able to stay sober.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, that's a huge change because five years ago, that would not have been the case, I'm guessing. So up until very recently, the typical paradigm was that if somebody moved into the realm of addiction, then the assumption was that means you have to take away the ADHD medication because it's a stimulant.

Jeremy Didier: In a control substance. Yes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And so that's really shifted very recently. What's changed? What do y'all know about it?

Jeremy Didier: I mean, more research has been done, and it's hard to get research done because there's a lot of drug companies that are really not in a huge hurry to give people in treatment who are already struggling with addiction drugs to try, but it really does work. I mean, several recent studies have shown a 70% improvement in cognition for people who are checking into treatment always needs to be a long-acting formulation. They don't recommend starting on short-acting because it impacts the body differently than long-acting stimulants do.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: 70%. That's not a small number. I mean, that's super significant.

Jeremy Didier: And I don't throw it out lightly. I'm on data. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And we'll put data in the show notes to make sure everybody sees what we're talking about here. So let's talk a little bit about what happens when you treat someone for ADHD. What's the assumption about why that improves outcomes for addiction?

Jeremy Didier: Chris, you want to take that one?

Chris Foster: So, for example, I teach high school, if I have a student who was medicated when they were in elementary school, but they stopped taking it because they didn't like how it made them feel, or they were having appetite issues or any of the other side effect, growth, puberty. I know. I'm just going to throw that word. Puberty, your brain chemistry changes. As your brain chemistry changes, your medications tend to need to be changed too. So if you can continue a course of action where you find one that is better for your particular level wherever you are in development, I will see a huge change as a teacher. As a teacher and with parenting, if you're doing parenting behavior therapy or therapy treatment, you're going to have a much higher success rate, both academically and socially. But the whole thing is, you've also dodged the addiction bullet. Again, I teach high school. Those are the years 14 to 25; that's when everyone is experimenting. In my particular city, we have a fentanyl problem. You're experimenting, you get one bad pill, and you're gone. That's it. And I've already lost six former students' fentanyl overdoses. I talked to my students openly, and you do not know where this is coming from. I teach culinary, so I can literally go get a grain of salt and show them how small fentanyl can do. So if I'm honest with my students, and I talked to them about this because they've had a family member that this has happened to, if we can keep the kids open, at least open, to the thought of treatment for their ADHD instead of okay, now you're in high school, you don't need it anymore. We may be able to get them through those really tricky puberty, middle school, high school years so that they aren't going down that path to addiction because they are going to self-medicate. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What I think I'm hearing you say is that one of the things that we're seeing is that this is the age of experimentation starting so that if you can have proper treatment of ADHD or a diagnosis and treatment of ADHD, you're going to reduce the risk of experimenting with other substances is that I'm hearing? Jeremy, what would you add?

Jeremy Didier: I think that's one great point. I think also if you think about the social skills and the fact that people or kids with ADHD are three to five years behind their same age [inaudible] in some area or another, just the social aspect of your ADHD is managed, you're going to be less likely to do a bunch of impulsive things to try to fit in with people or make friends with people who may be older than you or younger than you and trying things that the to Chris' point may be really scary to try. So if your ADHD is managed, and you're taking medication, and you're able to take in the information that you're hearing from parents and teachers and peers in a positive way, I'm going to say unless positive influences because there's influences of all kinds everywhere. But if your ADHD is managed, you're less likely to engage in other kinds of impulsive risks taking behaviors.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So there's two things I hear in that. There's it's likely to help manage impulsivity and also improve that self-regulated capacity to say no. Well, they're not actually they're close, but not the same thing.

Chris Foster: Correct. Well, that's the whole self-regulation, but right now, we are still struggling with our kids. And this is across the board. This is not just strictly the kids with ADHD, please. COVID threw everyone for a loop. So you're looking at self-regulation. The seniors this year were freshmen. We have nothing but middle school acting behaviors in the school systems right now because these kids were not able to learn the social skills that they're supposed to learn in middle school. So now it's perpetuating. And if you have a student or a child that has ADHD, or some other neurodiverse superpower, then the socialization part really leads to the impulsivity. They all go hand in hand. They're different, but they dovetail together.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So our kids are typically three to five years behind their peers in some aspects of their development. And now you're adding this cultural delay of three years that we've had with the pandemic. So you've got all these kids whose bodies and exposure are still what they would have been, but now they're even less mature enough to handle it. 

Chris Foster: Correct. 

Jeremy Didier: And if we can even expand on that, let's make it a little more [inaudible] I mean, if you think about it, well, we know that kids with ADHD are more likely to try substances sooner than their same-age peers. So if the average kid takes their first drink and this is actually not accurate anymore. It used to be like 13-

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That sounds old to me.

Jeremy Didier: -the kid with ADHD takes their first drink at 10 or 11. And we know that ADHD is genetic. And so you also have parents in the house who may have ADHD that is undiagnosed or poorly managed, who may be alcoholics or engaging in addictive behaviors themselves. And so the kids have really nowhere to go to find a good role model or of what normal looks like.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. So we're going to take a quick break, then we're going to come back and figure out how people can integrate this information in what to do with it. So welcome back. Okay. So we've set the stage for the relationship between ADHD and addiction. The reasons why ADHD has a higher risk of addiction and the reasons why identifying it and treating it early can actually improve the risks of addiction. And I'm thrilled to hear you report now that that bias that used to exist against ADHD medication in treatment centers is no longer universal. And my bet is it's not quite where we want it to be, but that trend is moving because we talked for so many years about if you don't treat the underlying ADHD, you can't really just say no is not going to move the needle very far. So let's move this conversation to what parents need to know. You got a kid with ADHD. You may or may not be concerned about addiction because of their behavior because of your behavior, partners' behavior, family history. What do parents need to understand differently from here from this conversation moving forward?

Chris Foster: I would say just really being open and honest with their kid with ADHD and their family. I didn't find out about my ADHD until about eight years ago, and it was life-changing. I mean, my whole life makes sense.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Me too. I got you.

Chris Foster: Right. And then, in all of that, I'm rebuilding relationships with family and realized just how genetic it is. But no one had ever talked about it. And so, me being the first one diagnosed as an adult, that got the ball rolling. I think the other thing is just really taking the stigma away. I talk a lot about being neurodiverse, in my classroom, to my students, and to all of my colleagues because I think it's so important that we all embrace and appreciate each other's diversity. So when I phrase it, and I reframe things in a positive way, man, that just changes it. I have some kids that are rough for other people, oh my, and they can just walk in my room. And it's like [sigh]

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Because they feel seen. They feel acknowledged.

Chris Foster: They feel seen, safe. They feel safe. And my educational research, education has proven that you can keep kids engaged in school if they have one adult in the building that they feel safe with. And so I try and be that person. And my entire administration knows I harbor fugitives, and I just harbor fugitives. But I can get those fugitives to a point where they can then go on to their academy or principal's office or counselor because they've been able to self-regulate. I give them the opportunity to self-regulate. I have to take the opportunity to self-regulate sometimes too. And being honest with your kids, hey, I need a minute; the adult needs a minute. So I'm modeling the behavior for them, and I think that that's been very helpful for me from that educational point of view. Ironically, my son does not have ADHD, which is a little bit interesting to me, but he is neurodivergent. So it is what it is. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So be open and honest. Take the stigma away; demystify it. Help kids feel seen, safe, and trusted. Jeremy, what would you add?

Jeremy Didier: We know all of this, right? And we're talking about now we have all this research, we know that kids with ADHD are at high risk for developing addictive tendencies. And yet when kids with ADHD are diagnosed, what do we do about it? Does their doctor talk to them about it? Is there a program to talk about the risks of addiction? Where's the education around that? So definitely, if your kid has ADHD, educate yourself. Make sure you're talking to them about this, thinking we're not talking; just say no. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What's really important here is that there's we hear from parents all the time that well, I don't want to give them any ideas. Talking to them about their risk of addiction is not giving them the idea.

Jeremy Didier: No, trust me.

Chris Foster: No, not at all. And I will be very honest; my son is 23. He graduated college a year ago. He is currently living in South Korea, teaching English to kindergarteners. Interesting.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful.

Chris Foster: It is. It is awesome.

Jeremy Didier: Fabulous.

Chris Foster: But during his college years, he literally told me before he left he does not drink very often because he knows there are risks with the neuro divergence that he has. And so hearing and seeing and talking about our family members that do struggle with addiction, that are his age are a little older, he's aware. And so it does get in there, and it's not going to be like, oh, I'm going to go because they told me to. It's the same thing when we're looking at suicidal ideology. Talking about it helps. It's not giving them the idea. The same thing goes here.

Jeremy Didier: Yeah, excellent point.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and with early sexuality and with everything else. Kids will take the information they need, and we don't realize they're listening as much as they really are. We don't realize they're paying attention as much as they really are. Jeremy, what would you add?

Jeremy Didier: Well, two things. I mean, to your point, yeah, kids will find the information that they need and are searching for. And I'd much rather it come from someone who's educated about these kind of things, and they go out and find it from their friends. And then, as I say this all the time to my clients, if you treat the parent's ADHD and the parent's addiction or substance use disorder, things just get better. And so it's not enough to just talk to your kid and make sure they're treated. If you're an adult with ADHD, diagnosed or undiagnosed, get diagnosed. And if you're struggling with substance use disorder or addiction challenges, then get treatment for that too, because lots of studies show that if you just make the parent with ADHD better, the whole family gets better, and addiction is a family disease. It impacts everyone in the family.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right, and so does ADHD. It's whether everybody has it or one person has it has an impact on everybody else. As I was hearing you talking, I was thinking about so when my son was in high school; he took a neuro-psych class and ended up doing all of this research on drugs. And I had family members who were like, why are you letting him do that? All of the judgment and all of the shame, and I'm like, are you kidding me? He's doing a deep dive and learning all this stuff and researching it. And at one point, he looks at me, he's like, okay, well, here's what you need to know, mom, I don't want to die. And I want to know what this stuff is. And the better informed they are, the better informed their choices are going to be. 

Jeremy Didier: Exactly. 

Chris Foster: Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. And so we want to trust that they have the capacity to make good choices. We want to cultivate that capacity. And let's be serious. At some point, they're going to be making those choices. So we really want to foster the decision-making and problem-solving skills rather than just saying yes, no or putting consequences in place, which is often, in that way, a euphemism for punishments. We really want to be helping them think about these issues and inviting them to see themselves as serious in thinking about these issues, not just what I'm hearing you saying, not just about addiction, but also about how do you want to manage your ADHD. What is important to you about this? And when we can take away that stigma, then we can take away the tendency to say stop talking to me about ADHD because often we do it so much it's our agenda. And what we're really talking about in this conversation is helping it become their agenda.

Chris Foster: Well, and self-advocacy, from a teacher's point of view, if I have a student that is open and honest with me, as I am open and honest with them. I try really hard to model the behavior. I would hope that the kids would show me. So I have a very respectful classroom. I don't have any behavioral issues. I have a kid that has a bad day. But if they're having a bad day, they tell me, and I leave them alone.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Because you're giving them space.

Chris Foster: Right. And so being able to do all of that and have that and give them those opportunities to truly come into their own. Ah, that, for me, is what it's about. I mean, I wish there was a way that we could get the diagnosis process so that it was not so expensive and so hard. It is a lengthy process.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It is a complicated diagnosis. It really is.

Chris Foster: You have to really be willing to stick to it and go through all of the phases, if you will, of the diagnosis process. And I think, if we can somehow make it so that it's not so scary for parents, that would be helpful too.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Agree. So we have to wrap up this conversation as interesting is as important as it is. It's so important. We had talked about how people find out more about this or about you. And the first thing you said is, I send them to you, to Impact Parents. So we put some links on Impact there, and so I appreciate that. And what we'll do, is there anything else, or do we want to just sort of tell people we're going to put some links in the chat for AAA and NAMI and Impact Parents and recovery links and that kind of thing? Is there anything else?

Jeremy Didier: I think those are probably the most helpful ones right now. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay. So we'll make sure to put some good links in the show notes for people who are looking for more information on this. And I want to come back to each of you and ask you, is there anything else you'd like to share with the listeners today, either something you want to come back to and really highlight or what you hope parents will take away from today. Chris, can we start with you?

Chris Foster: Sure. I really am, well, for starters, very honored to be in this company. I positively adore both of you. And really just open and honest communication. I think that communication piece, we have to do all of these things together. And if we have open communication, so much more can be accomplished. When the parent is able to talk to the teacher, and the teacher is able to talk to the parent, and the student gets their voice in there so that they're truly heard. A lot of the kids will tell me that they just don't feel heard. And I think that is really one of the big keys for me.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful. Thank you. Jeremy, what about you?

Jeremy Didier: I, too, adore both of you, so thank you for inviting me to be here. I think the things that are yelling in the back of my head are it's never too late. It's never too late to get help.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Author's message.

Jeremy Didier: And it's never too late to get treatment. It's never too late to make life changes. And we didn't dig too much into the recovery piece of it. But if you're an adolescent or young adult that's trying to stay sober and is experiencing challenges in the recovery community, that can be challenging to navigate as well. And I just want to remind people that there are thousands of ways to get and stay sober these days. And so if the one that you're working with right now is not working for you, change the channel, find a different one, and now with COVID, too. I mean, one of the good things about COVID is that there are recovery meetings around the clock on Zoom around the world. You can always find one. If you don't like the one you're in, go to a different one because that can be a little tricky to navigate sometimes as well. And so that's something that we probably do want to talk about in the future. But for now, it's never too late. There's always, always, a chance to get help.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So beautiful, and I'm going to probe one more on that one if you're okay with it because we haven't talked about that a lot. And I love that notion that there are thousands of ways to get recovery support. If someone has ADHD and is running up against the obstacle of getting support that allows them to continue to manage their ADHD, what advice do you have?

Jeremy Didier: Find a different meeting.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Different meeting or different provider, I'm guessing, because there's definitely, providers and physicians who still have this notion.

Jeremy Didier: Yeah. Like we said at the beginning, I mean, there's much work still to be done. There are people who still believe you can't prescribe stimulant medication to people who are struggling with addiction issues. And there are recovery groups out there who will tell you that if you're taking medicine that you're not sober. You can't take medicine and be sober. [overlapping]

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I have kids coming out of treatment centers who were not treated for their ADHD in a treatment center.

Jeremy Didier: Yeah. But what happens and so, and it's really unfortunate that we don't have, I guess, more progress across the board there, but there are enough people out there who are educated. And if you are running into brick walls, then reach out to us. We'll connect you with [overlapping]

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We'll send you in the right direction or a new direction to truly find the right direction.

Chris Foster: I think the conversation just continuing to have the conversation over and over and over again because the more you have it, the more people hear it. It's an ongoing thing. And if I have to be the cheerleader, I will be the cheerleader because there's far too many people are at risk right now. And that's why we're here. That's why we're doing what we're doing. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful. Thank you. I love it. So we always end our sessions with a favorite quote or motto. Do you have a quote or motto that you want to share? 

Chris Foster: Okay, I'm going to do mine. So this has been my teaching motto for my entire teaching career. So 20, however many 25 years or whatever, it's not better, it's not worse. It's just different.

Jeremy Didier: I like that.

Chris Foster: Don't judge. We just talk about it in those kinds of ways. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So it's not better, it's not worse. It's just different. I love that.

Chris Foster: It's just different. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I love that.

Jeremy Didier: I'm going to steal the Impact one and just enjoy the ride. I mean, the relationship is the most important thing with your kid and with your partner. Make sure you're focused on that and don't forget to enjoy the ride.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, that's beautiful. And those of you who don't know, when we first started Impact Parents or Impact ADHD at the time, our tagline was enjoy the ride. And we had a lot of parents who didn't even believe it was possible. So the tagline changed to helping parents help kids. And what I've been saying a lot lately is helping parents help kids so that you can enjoy the ride. So thank you, I love that. I appreciate that. Both of you, thank you for being ambassadors for powerful and important conversations-

Jeremy Didier: Happy to be here.

Chris Foster: Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: -and doing what you're doing each of you, in your own ways. Really powerful, profound work in the world. 

Jeremy Didier: Thank you for having us. 

Chris Foster: Thank you. I think you're doing something.

Jeremy Didier: Yes, exactly. You're saving lives. 

Chris Foster: Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Thank you. And to those of you listening, you're listening because you're trying to make it better and make it different and make it make a difference. And I want to ask you to take a minute before you turn off whatever you're listening to or forward on to the next to think about what are you taking away from this conversation that you've just listened to? What did you get from it? What's your insight, your aha? What do you want to take away and take with you into this coming week? What will serve you as you move forward into your week? And as always, thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids. At the end of the day, it makes an enormous difference. Take care, everybody. Have a great week.

Helpful Links:

-Parent Expectations: 2 Steps to Success 

-Parenting is Leadership Guide