Why Neurodiverse Employees Burn Out — And What Neuroinformed Leadership Changes: You know the feeling: things run “smooth as silk” at work, but at home it’s a train wreck. Or maybe it’s the reverse. In this episode of Parenting with Impact, Elaine Taylor-Klaus welcomes her husband and colleague David Taylor Klaus of DTK Coaching for a conversation about a truth they keep coming back to: parenting and leadership use the same underlying skillset — and neurodiversity awareness matters just as much in the boardroom as it does at the kitchen table.

David, a professional coach who works with executives and entrepreneurs, describes his role as “reintroducing successful entrepreneurs and senior executives to their families” — helping leaders who are so over-calibrated toward work that they’ve lost connection to what actually drives them. That same disconnect, he and Elaine argue, shows up when leaders don’t understand the neurodiversity of the people they manage.

What is neurodiversity, really?

David defines it simply: neurodiversity refers to different ways the brain is wired, causing people to think, lead, and work differently. The further someone’s brain wiring is from what’s considered “neuronormative,” the less a traditional work environment supports their brain — which is why masking is so common in corporate settings. Elaine and David point out this same dynamic shows up everywhere: homes, workplaces, schools, and clinics.

Why does masking hurt employees and retention?

When environments don’t support how people’s brains actually work, two things happen: individuals work against their own wiring, and organizations get far less out of the people they already have. Burnout rises, PTO and sick time increase, and team cohesion suffers. David also introduces the idea of “quiet leaving” — employees who stay in their role but disengage because they’ve stopped trying to fit a system that doesn’t fit them. Replacing an employee, David notes, is expensive — not just to hire, but to onboard and integrate a new person into the team.

What can leaders do differently?

A recurring theme: onboarding is chronically under-invested, and it matters even more for neurodivergent employees who need explicit context about culture and communication norms. David also points to “ghost patterns” — outdated processes that were never re-evaluated as the workforce changed. The fix isn’t just adapting systems to fit people; it’s recognizing what different neurotypes bring to the table. As Elaine puts it, people with neurodivergence are often “specialists in a generalist’s world.”

The parenting connection

Elaine and David return again and again to how directly this maps to parenting — teaching communication, buy-in, and trust at home mirrors what good leaders do with their teams, and vice versa. Elaine describes parenting as an “18 to 25-year onboarding process” to help kids become independent, capable adults — masters of their own wiring.

What to expect in this episode:

• How neurodiversity shows up the same way at home, at work, at school, and in clinics — and why that matters for parents
• How masking damages people emotionally and physically, and what “quiet leaving” looks like in practice
• Why onboarding is one of the most underused tools for supporting neurodivergent employees and family members alike
• The idea that designing for neurodivergence benefits everyone — “all boats rise”
• How the same communication and trust-building skills that work at home can transform a team, and vice versa

Why Neuroinformed Workplaces Keep Their Best People

About David Taylor-Klaus

 is a Master Certified Coach, speaker, and author on a mission to unearth and unleash the personal mastery of entrepreneurs and senior executives. Since 2008, DTK has empowered his tribe to take an active, intentional, and dynamic role in their development and create the kind of life rhythm that enables them to build profitable businesses, raise thriving families, and live wildly fulfilling lives.

His best-selling new book “Mindset Mondays with DTK: 52 Ways to REWIRE Your Thinking and Transform Your Life” is available on Amazon.

Related Links:

• Co-Parenting with Elaine & David: Real Strategies to Improve Family Dynamics
• Paradox: High Achieving Adults with ADHD
• Success Story: Tools to Enhance your Coaching

Our Discussion

Elaine: My guest on today’s podcast is known to say that the only difference between parenting and leadership is that one group starts out shorter and they can’t be fired. Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation in the Parenting with Impact podcast. I am thrilled to welcome my husband, my colleague, my partner in crime, my soon-to-be co-faculty member at the Neuroinformed Institute, David Taylor Klaus. Welcome to the podcast. 

David: Excited to jump behind the mic with you. 

Elaine: I am too. It’s great to have you here. And you guys are all in for a treat, ’cause Dave and I never really know what we’re gonna say, but it’s always fascinating. 

David: Follow us, we’re going somewhere. 

Elaine: Um, today we’re gonna have a conversation, so let me set the stage for those of you who may not know yet, although probably many of you have heard about it. At Impact ADHD, we’ve launched something called the Neuroinformed Institute, and we are really focusing on professional development and professional education for all kinds of professionals to better understand neurodiversity, what it is to, to have a neuroinformed practice, and, um, for those interested to learn neuroinformed coaching skills to support whatever their practice is, whether it’s educators, therapists, doctors, managers, HR. Whatever arena you happen to be a professional in, what we’ve learned over 15 years of doing this work, 20 years of doing this work, is that neuroinformed coaching skills can significantly improve your efficacy in whatever arena you happen to be working in. So we’ve launched something called the Neuroinformed Institute. You can find out more about that at neuroinformed.pro. We’ve got webinars coming up, a founding cohort coming up, and David Taylor Klaus is one of the founding faculty members. So I’ve asked David to join me today with his faculty member hat on to talk a little bit about, um, what the impact is, what’s important to professional audiences. David’s a professional coach. He works with executives and entrepreneurs. Um, David, why don’t you introduce yourself and tell us a little bit about what you do and, and how you see your role in coming to work with us at the NII? 

David: The way I describe the, what I do when people ask me if I’m a coach, I, what I do, I don’t say I’m a coach. So I describe the work that I do as reintroducing successful entrepreneurs and senior executives to their families. And, and I describe it that way because it, the folk I work with are the ones that are so over-calibrated towards work that they often lose center. They lose connection with the thing that, things that drive them, the things that are core and essential and important to them. So the work that I do is that internal work that really helps them re-anchor with what’s driving them from a values and internal perspective to help them be better at doing the things that they do out in the world. And one of the reasons that I’m excited about Neuro-Informed is because we’re helping these leaders better understand… The design is to help them better understand the people they’re leading and the diversity of brain styles that they have, and how that can change and broaden the range of what’s available to the company. But also, they learn a lot about themselves because with such a high percentage of folks being neurodiverse and not everybody being diagnosed, it’s astounding how many of these leaders begin to realize that they’re not wired like neuronormative folk.

Elaine: Well, let’s, that’s a great intro. There are several pieces to that, to that great intro. Why don’t we start by defining terms a little bit, right? So we, there’s this, you we’re talking about the business place, we’re talking about executives and entrepreneurs. What do we know about entrepreneurs and neurodiversity?

David: That 70-plus percent of entrepreneurs are also ADHD, at the very least, if not other neurodiversity to go along with it. 

Elaine: Expected to be, right? We don’t have hard data, but there’s, there’s large, large suspicions of that. 

David: Tons of studies, all of which intimate it, but there’s not one massive study that says entrepreneurs are like this because there are a lot more entrepreneurs that ever filter into the studies.

Elaine: Right. So there’s a very strong correlation between neurodiversity and entrepreneurship, and in the professional environment, often leadership. People in leadership positions very often come from the neurodiverse world. How would you describe neurodiversity? 

David: I drill it down to the simplest. They’re different ways of thinking, right? They’re different ways the brain is wired, which causes folk to lead differently, think differently, work differently. And the farther that the way their wiring drifts from the way neuronormative folk… It’s so hard not to say what, what too often gets said in the work environment, which is normal. So the further one drifts away from neuronormative wiring, the less the work environment can support their brain. So, so often there’s a lot of masking in the corporate world because folks are having to mask their neurodiversity and pretend to function in a way that those around them are often pretending to function.

Elaine: We’ve got a large percentage of people with neurodiversity, and, and I think the way I might add to what you’re saying is neurodiversity is a term that tells us that there’s a wide range of differences in people’s brains and how they’re wired. And what you’re saying is that the workplace is very much designed towards, um, a particular kind of wiring. You might call… Some people call it neurotypical. We tend to call it at the institute, we call it neuronormative. But so the world is kind of wired, is, is designed to work for people whose brains are wired a certain way. But yet there’s this really big range of diversity in brains and how people show up, both at home and the workplace, and a lot of people listening to this are listening because you’re dealing with family members with neurodiversity or neurodivergence. That’s when it’s really different from the mainstream, uh, way that brains are wired. But what we’re talking about today is that that happens everywhere, not just in our homes. It’s happening in our workplaces, it’s happening in our schools, it’s happening in our clinics. It’s, it’s everywhere we look, this divergence and diversity of brain wiring shows up.

So what’s important about that?

David: When you’ve got folk where the environment doesn’t support the way their brain is actually wired and the way their brain works, you have a couple things. You have those individuals working against their own brain, and you are, as an organization, getting so much less out of the people that you actually already have, and your retention can plummet because you get so much more burnout. And when people don’t feel held, understood, and able to contribute, they go somewhere else. And so your retention can really suffer. And it’s very, very expensive to replace someone on a team. Because it’s not just the time to find somebody, time and expense to find somebody, it’s also to bring them on board and to immerse them in the team, and it’s the loss of productivity on everybody else involved. So it’s so much less expensive for organizations to learn how to lead the folk they actually have than to replace them over and over and over again. 

Elaine: So what causes them to have to replace them? 

David: Couple things. We, with neurodiverse folk, when they’re not able to contribute at the level they’re comfortable with, they begin to burn out and their performance degrades even further.  So that’s one reason, whether they’re asked to leave or they leave to go find somewhere else. Either way, that causes them to need to be replaced. We also have a higher, uh, PTO requirements and higher sick time for folk who are not feeling held and supported by the organization. Um, you also have lower team cohesion when you’ve got either folks that are constantly leaving or that you’ve got folks on the team that other folks on the team don’t understand the way their brains are wired. Right? So we’ve got folks who have different ways of processing. If everything on the team is done in writing and asynchronous, it can be really hard for neurodiverse folk. When it’s done in real-time meetings and conversations, it can have a much, it can be much better for folk. So having mixed modalities in the way teams function and the way information moves across a team can make a huge difference for neurodiverse folk. So the better we understand the way the team is configured, what types of brains that we have, the better a leader can design the way the team interacts. 

Elaine: Let’s take a quick break, and then we’ll come back and kinda dive a little deeper. Welcome back everybody to the Parenting with Impact podcast. My guest is my husband, the one and only David Taylor Klaus, DTK Coaching, and also my colleague at the new NeuroInformed Institute. And, and we are having a conversation to really begin to explore… You know, we started off kind of joking but serious about the, the, that parenting and leadership are very much the same thing, and I don’t think we’ve kinda dived into that yet, and maybe we should start there, um, David.  And then we can bring it back to what, what we’re understanding about what’s happening in the workplace and, and what we believe we can be doing to set the future workplace set up for success for our complex kids. So let’s start with that parenting leadership thing. 

David: I had a leader years ago that I was working with who her teams at work were doing incredibly well. There was a tremendous amount of buy-in, great communication, great collaboration, and they could truth tell without people getting offended because they really knew each other and trusted each other. And yet at home, it felt like a train wreck with the kids, and she couldn’t understand why things, as she said, “Things are smooth as silk at work, and they’re a train wreck at home, and I don’t get it.” And so we started to talk about how- She was dealing with buy-in with the kids, how she was dealing with communication, and rule setting, and consequences, and everything to do with leading those children, she saw it as completely different. When she started to use the same skills that she used for team cohesion, and team growth, and team development, when she started using that at home with the kids, everything changed.  So it’s so easy to see when you’ve got patterns that work in one place and you’re not using them in the other, brilliant opportunity. And it works both ways. When you’ve got clear communication at home, what are you doing differently there than you’re doing at work? How can you map those successes over?

Elaine: You know, I did a presentation years ago that I just thought was so fun about that parenting is really kind of like onboarding our kids to adulthood. It’s just a, you know, 18 to 25-year onboarding process. That it, you know, it, it’s, it’s not that 8 to 12 days or whatever, but it really, it kinda takes some time, but that’s really our goal is to set them up to become independent operators, right?

David: Right. Well, you’re teaching them what the world is like in, in a safe environment, learning how to play in that world. And by the way, that’s a real challenge, especially with neurodiverse folk in the workforce. Onboarding gets short shrift all the time. Very few companies give enough time, effort, energy, and attention to onboarding. And when you got somebody who’s neurodiverse, you need to do even more onboarding. And so I think, look, if there’s one area I could get leaders to pay more attention is teaching new employees what the culture is, what the lay of the land is, how people actually work together, how they communicate, what styles are like. That onboarding is more important than anything. So I think back to your question earlier about retention, that’s another thing that tanks retention, is you’re not teaching people what the way of that organization is, and so it’s hard for them to just figure it out. 

Elaine: Well, and as you say, the way of that organization, does that kind of run up against those neuronormative biases we talked about earlier? Like, if there’s a way the organization does and it’s out of sync with the people in it, how do you dance with that? 

David: Well, there, there’s also, back when we played with ORSC, organization and relationship systems coaching, you also get ghost patterns, that this is the way it’s always been done ’cause it was set up by one of the leaders 10 years ago, and nobody reevaluated it. Well, your workforce doesn’t, likely doesn’t match what it was five years ago or 10 years ago, and your culture and your processes probably don’t either. So it’s so often it’s the way it’s always been done can really make it harder for the new workforce. We have five generations in the workforce, and we have much more neurodiversity. So it’s very different. This isn’t your father’s company. 

Elaine: Do we have more neurodiversity? 

David: Uh, no, I think we have more… we are aware of neurodiversity more, and I think there’s more diagnoses ’cause we better understand brains, right? So is there more? Probably not. Can we put our finger on it more? Oh, yeah.

Elaine: Yeah, you might, you might argue that we live in this interruption driven world where, where more people run into challenges with, with attention and focus and follow through than they might have in a previous world that was more supported. 

David: We have research on the interrupt driven work environment. It’s like a work style ADHD because those who need a lot of uninterrupted attention, focus to, I mean, a lot of uninterrupted time to focus, in an interrupt driven environment they buckle. And whether they’re neuronormative or not, our pace has gotten so great. 

Elaine: Right, and the volume that we’re dealing with has gotten so great. So there’s, there’s more, potentially more neurodivergence in the workplace. There’s certainly more awareness of it. We’ve got a lot of younger people coming into the workforce now who have an expectation of accommodations. 

David: Well, they have a better understanding of their brain. They’re no longer content to work against their brain because they spent so much time in school with accommodation, learning how to work with the brain they actually have. So they do, they come in not just with an expectation, but a mastery of their own wiring. 

Elaine: Oh, right. Not all of them, but, but actually that’s what, you know, when you put your parent hat on, part of what we’re trying to do is to set them up for success to become a master of their own wiring. Right? And so then they get into the workplace and, and part of us, I think, as parents fall into these old patterns of you need to. You need to buckle, you need to mask, you need to accommodate, you need to work within the system, right? 

David: Why can’t you just? 

Elaine: Yeah. Why can’t you just? And then there’s this other part of us that knows, and I think that’s what we’re really speaking to with, with this neuro-informed work, that the systems have to change. They have to adapt to meet the people that are coming into them now. 

David: I think this is an important distinction ’cause it’s not just the system adapting to who’s in it, it’s also taking advantage of the different neurotypes. Uh, December 24, we use this example a lot. Sir Richard Branson, the guy who runs, founded and runs Virgin Companies, um, launched Dyslexic University, or Dyslexia University, and his whole purpose is to teach the unique thinking styles of being dyslexic to folks that are not, and teaching it in the work environment. And there are benefits to the way the ADHD brain and the dyslexic brain and the neurodiverse brain can function that can bring added advantage to a neuronormative environment. It’s when everybody’s wired the same, you’re missing something. 

Elaine: Yeah, you’re not gonna get nearly the kind of range of possibility. But when you play to people’s strengths, all boats rise. Now, now you’re beginning to get the best out of everyone. I like to say… You know, I’ve been doing a lot of presentations in the last few years about neuro-informed coaching, neuro-informed practice, the Neuro-Informed Institute, and I like to say that people with neurodivergence are often specialists in a generalist’s world. Once we’re in the workplace, we’re not always looking for generalists. Sometimes we are, but very often we’re hiring for the person who’s got the capacity or the acuity in a particular area. Anything else you wanna add to that? 

David: Yeah. I, I think the part that concerns me most is how, how devastating ongoing masking can be for folk, and I think that not only do we get the most out of folk when we understand neurodiversity, corporate can do a lot of damage, or the work environment can do a lot of damage to folk, ’cause when we reinforce their belief or practice of masking, it, it’s, it’s devastating emotionally and physically.

Elaine: And what… Can you define masking from your lens, from this lens?

David: You know, we grew up in a time where it was a tush in the chair theory of education. That in sixth grade, if everybody’s tush was in the chair, they were learning something, and it was sit still, be quiet, eyes front. And to function that way, just to use the example of ADHD, to function that way in sixth grade was soul-crushing. It took a tremendous amount of force to will yourself. And in so much of the work world, neurodivergent people are being asked to do the same thing, is to muscle through the entire day, behaving in a way that looks neuronormative rather than the way they… 

Elaine: Or even productive. 

David: Yeah, even productive. And productive in a way that they would expect looking through a neuronormative lens. And that’s exhausting, and it has impact on that person the rest of the day. 

Elaine: Yeah. Well, and I… The term I learned from you a couple of years ago was this notion of quiet leaving. And, and so it’s not just that you’re, you’re forcing people to mask and there’s burnout and there’s crushing, but you’re also having people who are beginning to just give up trying.

David: Disengage. 

Elaine: Right. 

David: Yeah. They’ve still got a job. They still show up, but they’re not really all there. 

Elaine: Right. And we’re missing their capacity that could really make such a big difference. 

Elaine: Anything else we haven’t touched on? I have one more question I wanna ask… before we begin to wrap. Um, we’ve been talking a little bit about corporate environment. Talk a little bit about entrepreneurial environments in smaller business, ’cause a lot of us work in small businesses, not large businesses. How does this apply there? I mean, if you only have a few employees 

David: But one of the reasons it’s so good for folks with ADHD in the entrepreneurial environment is everybody’s wearing 10 hats because there are not enough people, there’s not enough time, there’s too much to be done. So the pace is really high, and the novelty and the variety of things that get done is very high. So that’s why it’s so attractive. And the pace is not always conducive to productivity, to effectiveness. It doesn’t mean you’re not always busy. But we’re also seeing in small companies you’ve got a distributed workforce, everybody’s scattered, so you don’t have as much of that face-to-face connection and continuity, so the culture can get kind of fractured. So in some ways, an entrepreneurial environment is really good for neurodiversity. In other ways, it can be really counter to it. And I think, on the whole, because people are so much closer and tighter and so reliant on each other that it really can be more supportive. 95% of that has to do with the leader’s understanding of whether everybody’s gonna function just like  in a neuronormative mode, or whether they understand they’ve got a neuroinformed understanding of workforce. So I think it’s more in an entrepreneurial environment because it’s so small and everybody’s responsible for so much. 

Elaine: So if someone were, let’s say, a CEO or a small company owner, manager, franchise, whatever, what would be the benefit from your lens? ‘Cause you know we’re about to start doing this, this neuroinformed training for neuroinformed practice. What’s the benefit? We it’s really clear, you know, we’ve talked in other episodes about the benefit to, to therapists and medical providers and, and educators. What, what’s the benefit in the business world of becoming neuroinformed? Like, why would that be a priority? 

David: For me, the bottom line is the more a company… the more an employee knows the company has their back, they’ll do… the more they’ll do anything for that company. And I don’t mean it in an unhealthy way. I mean they’ll really put heart and soul into it. And so when a leader is neuro-informed, they can better understand the folk that work for them. They can get so much more out of the folk they already have. And not only build that, I mean, raise retention, but build that loyalty and the, “I’ll do anything for this company.”  And small companies rely on people really leaning in. 

Elaine: Yeah. Loyalty becomes really, really important in a small business. And I can’t imagine our team, like, as hard as they work it, they also… everybody gets to be who they are in the company. Everybody gets to show up with their issues and their family dynamics and whatever it is, and that allows them to then compensate you know that… There’s this… That’s part of the gift, right?  It’s part of the caretaking. 

David: And they’re more human and seen as more human. They’re not just that work person. They’re, they’re humanized, and that makes for a much deeper connection, and your team is deeply connected. 

Elaine: Yeah truly. So, we need to start wrapping up the conversation. My guest today, it… my pleasure to have this guest, is my husband, David Taylor Klaus of DTK Coaching. You can find out more about him at DTK Coaching. Uh, you can find out about our couples work that we do with couples at touchstonecoaching.com. And he is, is one of the new faculty members joining me for the brand-new Neuro-Informed Institute in our, our cohort, uh, starting, I believe, next week by the time this airs, uh, for the neuro-informed practice, so neuro-informed education for all kinds of professionals, and I’m really excited to have him come play with me there. David, before we wrap, is there anything you haven’t shared that you really want to make sure you leave people with today?

David: Yeah, that idea, I really love what you said before, that the more neuro-informed– when we design for neurodiversity, all boats rise. Everybody does better. And I think looking through the lens of that universal design, that when we design it to meet everyone’s needs, everybody does better, I think that’s the most important piece here 

Elaine: Yeah, that and it’s, it’s so hard to understand that when you meet people with neurodivergence, you actually are able to meet everybody more effectively. Because it really isn’t about the divergence, it’s about the diversity. And if you can, you can find that path to understand and respect the different ways that people’s brains are wired, how they process information, how they approach motivation and intention, all of those pieces it works for everybody. It’s not just for people with neurodivergence. We have been hearing that from teachers for, for a dozen years about what a difference it makes in classrooms, so excited. 

David: What if we … mentioned to teachers? 

Elaine: Yeah. What if. All right, before we wrap, do you have a fun… So, what you guys may not know about David is that he’s a quote guy. So to ask David to share a favorite quote is almost cruel, ’cause he’s got an entire book of them. What’s your, what’s the title of your book? 

David: Mindset Mondays with DTK. It’s 52 ways to rewire your thinking and transform your life. 

Elaine: He takes a quote at the beginning of each chapter, and then kind of delves deep into it. So it, it’s a little unfair to ask you that, but I’m gonna ask you anyway. Do you have a favorite quote that you’d like to share today as we wrap this? 

David: Yeah, I’ll pull one that was one of the first, one of the ones I used on my very first website, like 18 years ago for this company. And it was Oscar Wilde, he said, “Be yourself.

Everyone else is taken.” So as we think about masking, that’s a great quote. “Be yourself. Everyone else is taken.” 

Elaine: I love that. What a beautiful way to close. So this is the last time we’re gonna talk about the new institute on this podcast before it begins, and I want to be super direct because you’ve trusted us for a long time. The founding cohort of the NeuroInformED Institute starts in one week, Wednesday, September 23rd. We meet live on Wednesdays at noon Eastern for about 90 minutes. Phase one is NeuroInformED foundations or NeuroInformED practice, and it stands on its own, no coaching background required, open to any professional who works with people, all about what’s included in a NeuroInformED practice. From there, phase two is split into two tracks for applied coaching techniques: family-facing if you work with families of complex kids, which is kind of built right on top of Sanity School, or adult-facing if you work with adults in coaching or healthcare, therapy, management, or leadership even. And then phase three is full certification with observed coaching and small group mentoring. Early bird pricing already closed, so the only real urgency here is the calendar. This is the founding cohort, whose questions and case examples will shape this curriculum for every professional who comes after, and there’s only one group that ever gets to do that. Founding member pricing is still in place, and everything you know, you need to know is at neuroinformed.pro/enroll, neuroinformed.pro/enroll. If you’re not sure which pathway is the best fit for you, start there and read the phases, and then email us. We genuinely want to help you find the best fit for you. And to the parents listening, you’ve been the most informed person in every meeting, the translator, the one who had to explain to your own, your own child to the people who were trying to help but may not have known how. You don’t have to enroll in anything, but you can forward this episode to one professional this week. Just one. Your child’s therapist or learning specialist, your pediatrician, or even your HR director. Because what we really want is much bigger than one cohort. It’s a world where a family doesn’t have to get lucky to find a professional who understands their kid, and where adults can move into a workplace that understand how their brains are wired. That takes practitioners, a lot of them, trained properly with credential that actually makes a difference. The first group starts Wednesday, neuroinformed.pro/enroll. Come be one of us or send us someone who should be. Now, let’s wrap up the episode  So David, thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for the amazing work you do, and for supporting me in the work that we do, ’cause you guys, it wouldn’t happen if I didn’t have David doing all that he does, including feeding me really, really well. And, um, and thank you for joining me very soon in the NeuroInformed Institute. I am very excited to get to pursue this adventure with you. So excited to have you there. 

David: Yeah. 

Elaine: Uh, to those of you listening, thanks for what you’re doing, for yourself, for your kids, maybe for your companies, for your employees or your, employers, uh, maybe for your clients, uh, or your patients or your students. At the end of the day, your engagement, your thinking about how to bring a neuroinformed approach to where you show up in the world makes the world a better place. So thank you. And if you like what you’re hearing on this podcast, please take a moment to like or follow or subscribe wherever you’re listening, whatever it is that supports us in letting other people know that this is something important to you. Leave a review if you can and, um, we’ll catch you on the next conversation. Take care.