Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Welcome, everybody. Welcome back to another episode of the parenting with impact Podcast. I am so excited to have this conversation today with my friend Nikki Kinzer, who is also a fabulous, brilliant educator, podcaster, and certified ADHD coach. And she specializes in adults and college students with ADHD and so brings a ton of wisdom.

Nikki Kinzer is also the co-host of a spectacular podcast taking control of the ADHD podcast with Pete right? And so she, like me, has interviewed everybody in the realm of ADHD. And so she's got this wealth of knowledge, from her own experience, as well as those she's interviewed.

And so I'm thrilled to have this conversation, we're going to get frustrated, because we're going to want more, and we're not going to have time, so just setting the expectation. But, Nikki Kinzer, welcome. I'm so glad to have you here. And I'm so glad to step into this conversation with you.

Nikki Kinzer: Thank you. Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be talking to you today.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Is it fun to be on the other side of the microphone? I have to be honest, I'm a little nervous. These little butterflies in my stomach? Yeah. Well, let's play with your butterflies and make them go away. Okay, that's right. Okay.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So let's start by just telling us a little bit about what you do with families. And we're here our podcast is focused on parents, you work with young adults a lot. So what is tell us about the work you do with families with complex kids and how you came to be doing this? Yes.

Nikki Kinzer: Well, so as I said, in my bio, I work with adults with ADHD and also college students with ADHD. And families are a part of that because definitely, I work with a wide range of different people.

I have a lot of parents, I have a lot of fathers and mothers, and they can either have ADHD or their kids have ADHD or in a lot of circumstances. Everyone in everybody. Yeah, except for maybe one person. And that might be the dog who has anxiety. I mean, yeah. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, my dog is really on Prozac.

Nikki Kinzer: I swear to God, he just never knows where to go, the bathroom is like, it's okay. Just choose, you're going to be fine. And then, of course, I work with, with college students who for the most part, they're, they're the younger college students.

They're just launching out from mom and dad. And they're 1819 years old, just starting out on their own. And so there's a lot of conversations with the students and with the parents. It's the beginning part for sure.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, setting the stage. So how did you get to be doing this work? What? Why?

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah, it's really interesting. Back in 2008, I was reading a newspaper article in our local paper, and it was about a professional organizer. And when the local paper went to do a search on professional organizers in my hometown, they couldn't find anyone, they didn't Wow, here and I, I had never thought of myself as an entrepreneur.

I never thought of myself as a professional organizer. But something just sort of tugged at me. Like, I wonder if I could do this on a part-time basis, still be with my kids. And because they were quite young at the time, and see what would evolve. And so I started doing professional organizing. And that's when I started working with Pete, who is my co-host, we've he's been with me since day one, and did professional organizing for a couple of years, probably two or three years.

But this is what I found, probably no surprise is that many of my clients had ADHD, and hunger. Yeah. And I realized very quickly that they needed, they needed something different. And they needed a different way to look at othe rganization. They needed to probably stop comparing themselves to what they were seeing in magazines and shows because especially during that time, there were a lot of like organizing shows on HGTV, and Oprah had Nate on all the time.

So there were a lot of high expectations. But there was a couple of clients who had ADHD that really inspired me to go into coaching. And so I just decided to kind of switch the business from organizing to ADHD coaching and that's when I went back and got my certification and got all my education and went from there.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So what was different when you shifted from organizing to coaching because I think that I've met a lot of ADHD coaches who started off as organizers. I think that's not an uncommon path. What's the difference? Like what were you doing? What did coaching call you to do differently?

Nikki Kinzer: It was more of the relationship piece. And I think it was also more of a partnership. So when I would go in and help people with their homes, it was fun. I mean, it was really a fun physical thing to do.

Because you're up and you're, you're creating ideas. And it was, it was a fun thing to do. But when I started doing the coaching, there was a real partnership where it felt like okay, what are we working towards? What are your goals? What are your challenges?

And how, how do we see ADHD in you? Where is that? Where's that falling for you? And how can we build a structure that would help you with your ADHD and not fight against it? So it was a very different type of relationship. And I just thrived in it. I loved it.

I loved being able to see my clients have the successes, that they weren't really feeling before or they weren't recognizing they were doing them, but they weren't recognizing them. So just having somebody else say, Hey, wait a minute you did check your planner.

You're working. Yeah, maybe you didn't do a planner, but you have a whole nother system that's working. Right. I found that a lot. Oh, yeah. So but that's the thing is it was just because it became more of a partnership. It was just that I really enjoyed the work. I do. I can't, I just can't imagine doing anything else.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So I think that's a great segue. Let's see, because one of the things I want to talk about is what do you want parents to know, to better understand their kids? Right, what are they missing?

And what you just said is so important, which is sometimes what they're doing is working, but it's not what we think it should be doing? Right? They should be in quotes, right? So that's kind of what I took from what you said, but what do you think parents really could benefit from understanding a little better?

Nikki Kinzer: Well, I'll tell you,.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I asked my daughter this question. Oh, yes. She was diagnosed with ADHD in February of 2020. Right before COVID. And when I have time to have that information, yeah, saying, yeah.

Nikki Kinzer: And yes, for sure. But when I was thinking about our interview, I wanted to ask her some questions, because I wanted to know from her, what would you want parents to know, because she had, she really had the benefit of having a parent who knows a lot about ADHD. And so when I gave her a planner, in December, I, the first thing I said, is, let me help you figure out how to work this. If it doesn't work, it's okay. We will find something else.

So for me, it was really important to let her know that it wasn't her fault, that this wasn't maybe working for her, that it wasn't something that she was doing wrong, and that it just may not be the right thing. But let's start here. Let's just start here and see how it works for you. And then we'll go from there.

So there was this kind of acceptance already that I think is really important for parents to have is that if you give them something, don't just don't put the pressure on them to make it work. Right. Yes, that's that it may not. But

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I'll go ahead. And just just playing on that a little bit. Because this ties in very much to something we talked about, which is to start with the assumption this system is not going to work, or it's not going to work right the first time. And that you're going to have to rinse and repeat and tweak and figure out how to make it work or decide this isn't the right system. And we need to try something else.

So often parents will say, Well, I tried this and they didn't, it didn't work, or I gave them this and they wouldn't use it. And what you're speaking to is that any system is only as good as the collaboration to help someone learn to use it and make sure it's the right system. Absolutely.

Nikki Kinzer: Well, and something that she said was very insightful. When I asked her the question, what would you What would you tell somebody that was just first diagnosed, and it did get into that question of parents? And she said, I think it's important for parents to understand that kids, especially with school, we're not trying to do bad.

Oh, and instead of getting mad, she said, I would hope that people would really look at it from their point of view, and understand that their learning is different from other people. And why so I say she she's a very weisel and something she said to about telling somebody else that was diagnosed she said Don't be ashamed.

Embrace it. She's like we're the best people in the world. She has like a real optimistic way of looking at it. And she said, don't be afraid to ask for people or for help. She said, don't be afraid to ask for help. It doesn't mean that you're stupid. And nothing is wrong with you. And that's one of the things that she found during COVID. And she will definitely find going back into the school system on a regular basis.

She needed to go to office hours, she needed to have conversations with her teachers, she needed to be taught twice, because it didn't she didn't get it the first time and she's aware of it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: But she had the ability to not beat herself up for that to learn it twice to go that extra mile without saying that means my failure somehow,

Nikki Kinzer: Yes. But I'll tell you something, she said that was really interesting to me, is that up until now, she hasn't wanted accommodations. And she will tell me, I don't think I need them right at this point.

And I'll tell you during COVID, she didn't like our school system, they did the best they could, but they had very little school. So there was a lot of pressure to get things done. But one of the things that she said is that I am willing to get accommodations when I go back to school, but she doesn't want anybody to know.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Oh, so there's still that stigma for her.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah, she doesn't want other students to know, because she's afraid that they're going to look at her differently. They're going to think there's something's wrong with her. So she's very self aware of how she feels it looks to other people. And I thought that was a really honest thing to say? Because, I mean, she's a sophomore in high school.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right age to not want to be different at all.

Nikki Kinzer: Right? Exactly. So she's wise, but she's also very much her age.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What I love about that is that it's really an important message for parents, it doesn't know, we may be wise and right or whatever. But we're still dealing with these, like developing humans who are hormonal kids or teenagers are like, we still have to recognize where they are and meet them where they are. Right, right. they're not adults yet.

And sometimes we just want them to be faster than they are. Except for in those areas where we don't. Exactly. You can stop growing now. Yeah, just stay. You don't have to go out on date. I want you to behave like a 27 year old when it comes to organizing your planner. Yeah, exactly. It is kind of unfair, that we do that, isn't it? Hmm.

So that's a lot of wisdom from her. So I what I heard was asked for help, don't be ashamed. But also for parents be real. They're teenagers, they're their kids, and they don't want to be different. trust that they're doing their best, and and help them accept their brains are wired differently. And that's okay. That's a lot of wisdom. Absolutely.

So, so make it real for us, Nikki Kinzer, how, how can a parent begin to, like you have years of experience that before your daughter was diagnosed, that led you to be able to have some of these conversations? What are some pieces that you can you think might be helpful for parents to begin to relay some of these messages?

Because it's easy to say don't be ashamed or ask for help. But it's easier said than done. Right.

Nikki Kinzer: Right. Well I would say that, probably, especially if the diagnosis, I guess it depends, I'm thinking out loud here. Do you have a family that already has ADHD? Like if you're a parent who has ADHD, that can be really helpful.

And I tell my parents who have ADHD that you are really going to relate to your child probably better than anybody else. And so you can be an advocate for your child, more so than anybody else, because you're going to understand that you're going to get them.

And you again, I think from what Paige was saying, just remember to take a step back and don't get mad, like, understand the situation first-

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: and slow. What's happening? And the other thing too, what you're saying is that you understand how ADHD shows up for you. That doesn't mean you know how it shows up for your kid, right?

So there's a process of learning Well, what is it for them and helping them understand themselves and not saying well, because because I do it this way, they should do it this way.

Nikki Kinzer: Oh, right. Yeah, cuz that absolutely may not be the case. And if you don't have ADHD, I highly recommend that you educate yourself as much as you can about it. Andgo to therapy, go to a family therapist to understand ADHD. listen to you guys.

I recommend your website all the time. Here are some great resources for parents: listen as much as you can to understand, it will definitely benefit you and your child and, and the relationship because I know, as a mom, myself and my kids are teenagers and one is ready to leave the nest, I want that relationship protected. And I don't want to always be fighting or nagging because right, we can give that to

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: him, but it doesn't really help much.

Nikki Kinzer: Right, right. So it's important, I think, to listen and learn as much as you can. And at the same time, we also know that our kids need structure, they need boundaries, they need to be very clear of what the consequences are.

But I think it's more of learning lessons. I tried to learn more from it than just saying, Oh, well, you did this. So now you're in trouble.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So at impact parents, we do a lot of work around collaboration, and talking with our kids and building relationships and learning how to have those conversations. And that's, that's kind of the subtext of what I'm hearing you saying is that stay in a relationship.

And yes, they need boundaries. And I'm guessing So talk a little bit about when you're creating boundaries, how do you do that collaboratively with your kids? Because knowing you, I'm guessing that you do. Oh, for sure. Do you remember?

Nikki Kinzer: Do you remember there was a Chad conference a couple years ago and the author of Oh, it's escaping me what his name is? Ross Greene. Yes. Yeah. Read through it. He's

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: all about collaborative conversations. We're all about Yes.

Nikki Kinzer: And I remember throughout the whole thing, he said, I can't have control, but I can have influence. I don't have that influence. And he said that throughout the whole thing. And, and I think that that's true. And I think that as they get older with teenagers, it is a power struggle.

And so we have to as parents to really understand what we want. What do we want? What is important? What not? Yeah, because your teenager is going to fight you to the end. And so the collaboration,

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, no matter what, no matter how good a parent you are, no matter how bright you are, or not, they're going to fight you because they're wired to do that. That's their job.

Nikki Kinzer: Yes, exactly. Right. So my, what we do, and I can only speak for myself is that if it gets escalated, we step back, because I can't. I know, nobody can solve a problem so well, right in that situation. And so we'll be able to step back.

I'm also very fortunate that I have a really good partner. And so if I get really frustrated, my husband can come in. And then when he's really frustrated, I get to come in. And I don't know why it works, but it does. And so I'm really lucky, we

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: call it tag team. Yes. And if we're, if we've done the work by tag and out yet do this, I'm going to blow up not a good idea. You take over.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah, but I think after the fire is out, then I think it's really about sitting down and talking about the situation. So if, for example, my son a couple years ago was breaking the curfew a lot. And we weren't happy about it.

We had to talk to him about why we set the curfew and, why it's important that you do this, and how do you understand it from our point of view. What is your point of view? And so it kind of became this conversation where, if you are going to be late, just let us know.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. Yeah. Communicate, and keep the kitchen open.

Nikki Kinzer: Yeah, text us, let us know, most likely. I mean, we're not going to say anything. I mean, unless it's for some really stupid reason. But for the most part, okay, you're running late. Great. Just let us know that. Because it's worse if you come home an hour late. And we don't know where you are or what you're doing. Yeah,

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, we had similar navigations with our young adults who had been away to college or out of college and are now living home because of the pandemic. And I don't want to impose on my 24-year-old who is living her life, but she's living in my house and not coming home or coming home late. I want to know that they are and we had similarly good conversations to sort of navigate their independence with our need to manage.

Absolutely, yeah. So Nikki Kinzer, as I promised, I knew we were going to start running up against time and want more, more, more. We still have a little time left, but I want to take a moment to let you share with people how they can find out more about you and how can people reach you. Sure.

Nikki Kinzer: So you can find everything at my website which is take control ADHD, calm. It has my code services. It has the online courses that I offer all of the podcasts, episodes and where you can find the podcast. And also we have a blog as well, that coordinates with what we're talking about in the podcast that week. So you can find all of that there. So that's probably the best place to go.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Awesome. So take control of ADHD cars, yes. Awesome. Awesome. So okay, so now we get to go back and continue your conversation. But no, commercial breaks are very important. We have to have this Yes. So what else? What would you like people to take away from today? What are we trying to get a sense of? This conversation is really about it's not just about organizing coaching, but it's about how do we navigate important conversations to stay connected to our kids? Right,

Nikki Kinzer: So listen, really listen to what your kids are saying. And I think that if, if they're coming to you, and they may not like me, my daughter came down the stairs one day, in September of 2019, and said, Mom, I think I have ADHD. Okay, why? She named it that well, one of the biggest things that she noticed that one of her friends was doing something in 20 minutes, so it was taking her two hours. All right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and she had the wisdom to know what it would be. Yes, yes. Because she was your daughter. Yeah,

Nikki Kinzer: right. Right. And she took the test. She's a big Googler. She likes to self diagnose herself. Yeah, she did. She took the test. And she passed!

Nikki Kinzer: But I think it's listening. Because even if you're somebody that doesn't know a lot about ADHD, and your kid doesn't know a lot about ADHD, and you don't even know this is what it is, something's not quite right. And that's what you need to pay attention to.

So if you notice that they're struggling, or they're saying, This is taking me so long, and I don't really understand what the teacher is saying the first time, or I find myself daydreaming, or whatever it is that that that child is experiencing, because they're not going to say that they have ADHD, they don't know right.

Now, if you have ADHD, you can really start paying attention to what some of those things are that they say, because then you can pick up on, maybe this is what it is. But definitely listen, because that's I think that's the biggest thing. And it's not even with ADHD, because both of my kids have dealt with depression and anxiety. Yeah.

And we also have to listen to that, too, when noticing when they're feeling down, noticing when they're isolating themselves, noticing when they're, their bad mood is more than just being a teenager. I could tell that there was something deeper going on. So I think it's just really paying attention and listening to them and having conversations with them and staying involved with them to know who their friends are. You know,

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: all of that. So you were talking about that conversation Ross Greene had at the conference we went to many years ago, one of the other things he said in that conference, and that presentation was and he talks about a lot is that behaviors are a symptom.

And if we stop seeing behaviors as a problem, and start seeing them as a symptom, then we can begin to explore what is a symptom of, it may be a symptom of something diagnosable like ADHD or anxiety, or depression, it could be a symptom of I'm unhappy, or I'm having a breakup with my friend like, yeah... who knows what it's a symptom of, but if we see it as a symptom, we're more likely to see them as needing our help and support instead of being naughty and difficult and disrespectful or lazy, or whatever language we ascribe to it.

That's not really true. Yes, that's absolutely right. So listen for those symptoms. That's kind of what I'm hearing from you listening to them as symptoms. Super. All right. Well, it's time to begin to close the conversation, sadly, but I've enjoyed it, as always, as always so much for having me. It's really a pleasure. So our guest has been Nikki Kinzer, and we're going to ask one more thing. Before we close up today, our final little fun wrap. Do you have a favorite quote or motto that you'd like to share with our community?

Nikki Kinzer: I do. It is one of my favorite quotes. And I share this with my clients all the time. Courage does not always war. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying I will try again tomorrow.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Oh, that's so beautiful. I'm going to ask you to say it again. Because it's beautiful.

Nikki Kinzer: Courage does not always war. Sometimes courage is the quiet voice at the end of the day saying I will try again tomorrow.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I love that courage is the quiet voice. It's beautiful. And that's a that's a great reminder for all of us as for parenting with complex Kids is that not only do we want to muster the courage to get up and do it again tomorrow, because some days it can be really hard, but also to really call on that courage of our kids to realize that sometimes they're roaring may need us to pull out a way to empower them in a different way. Absolutely. Yeah. You

Nikki Kinzer: think about all that overstimulation, all of those. That noise in their heads? Yeah,

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: yeah. For sure. Yeah, it's hard to be a kid with complex issues. just one more thing, but because we're here, and it's coming up, I was thinking about where we're taping this interview around the time of the Olympics in 2021.

And I've been thinking a lot about what happened with Simone Biles this week, and the courage that it took for her not to roar right out onto the screen, but to step back and say, This isn't safe for me. And how profound that is. And really, what we want for our kids is to guide them to be able to take care of themselves, whatever that is.

Nikki Kinzer: Absolutely. I'm glad you brought that up. Because yes, I was. I was thinking about that, too. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: My daughter said something to me last night. I'm like, I wrote her a letter. Okay, I read it on Facebook, or LinkedIn, or whatever. But I read because I really felt like she needed to be acknowledged because there's all this noise out there but to stand up and say, I gotta take care of myself, even at the cost of one of my greatest life dreams. That's a huge, juicy, no, yes. It's a hard thing to learn to do.

Nikki Kinzer: It is. Absolutely, yeah. It's an amazing story and I give her so much credit for what she is going through.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: True, true. All right. All right. So, again, our guest has been Nikki Kinzer and you can find more about her at take control at adhd dot com. 

Nikki Kinzer: Thank you as always for your insights, your wisdom, and your fabulously positive attitude. Thank you. And to the rest of you. Thanks for all you're doing for your kids and for yourself. Remember, you're making a difference. Take care, everybody.