Diane Dempster
The reality is that perfectionism has probably made you, as an adult, at times, really extraordinarily successful. And there are times that it can be exhausting. So, it's about figuring out the language you use, like, "Is it toxic or is it productive?"

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation in the Parenting with Impact podcast. Diane and Elaine are here today, and we are talking about progress and not perfection. 

Diane Dempster
Well, I think the big thing is perfectionism, right? And it's a big topic. We were discussing that this may be another situation where we end up with more than one episode, Elaine, to say that out loud, but perfectionism takes so many different flavors. It may be us with the perfectionist tendencies. It may be our kids with perfectionist tendencies. We're going to try to dance around, “When does it work? When is it not healthy? What to do instead?” How do we want to dive into the conversation, Elaine? 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I always want to set the stage and get the context of what we're talking about before we try to solve the problem, right? Make sure we know what we're talking about. And so, the solution that we often offer people is progress, not perfection. But, to do that, let's talk about what perfection is—or the gifts and the challenges of perfection and perfectionism. 

Diane Dempster
Yeah, so yeah, no, that's fair. And when I think about perfectionism, I'm interested in your take about this. There are kind of almost three flavors of it. One is that many of us are high achievers, right? We've been conditioned to do better, be better. It's like continuous improvement was a big thing, like back when I was early in the corporate days. And so there is this kind of healthy idea that you can always do better. You can always make things better. And it's an aspirational sort of thing. And then the other time perfectionism tends to show up is almost this sort of, "Oh my gosh, I've got to get it just right." And a lot of times, it's like, I would say, it's like fear or anxiety. gremlin-driven, Elaine, is the language I would use. Right. And so I think about those flavors of perfectionism, one that feels inspirational and one that feels kind of exhausting. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
But you started off saying three. What was it? What was your third? Because as I heard you, I was like, OK, there's that continuous improvement, high achieving, leaving the world a better place. Yeah. And then there's the thing that I was thinking, as I heard you say, there's also the "Never good enough."

Diane Dempster
Yeah, that's where I was gonna go, right? It's just sort of, like it's still a gremlin, but it's like this sort of "I've got to get it right, or I'll never get it." I mean, a lot of times there's like all this core stuff that's going on underneath it, it's like "I'm afraid of failure, or I have to get it," which is kind of I have to get it. Or I want somebody to like me, so I have to get it right, or I'm afraid to make a mistake. And so, that's where a lot of times our kids get stuck because they're so into perfectionism, they can't even initiate because they're afraid, "I don't do it perfectly. I shouldn't do it at all" kind of thing. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, that was my story. And the other piece to that was that there was an expectation that everything was going to be not just done but done well, right? It wasn't good. It wasn't OK to be good enough. Everything had the expectation it was excellent. So it wasn't just wanting to be a high achiever but also this pressure of being a high achiever. 

Diane Dempster
Well, and so, I think people who know me know that I've been a high achiever most of my life. I was a straight-A student in school, blah, blah, blah. And if my mom were still here, she would say, "We didn't put that on you. That was all you." And I don't want to fight about whether or not that's true, but there was this story that I told myself when I was a kid, and I've done a lot of work on this, guys, right? So the story I told myself when I was a kid was that if I only did X. Then I would make sure that I was safe. I would like to fit in the family. I didn't have any risk of anybody being mad at me or irritated or rejecting or what, like, it was like this sort of protective bubble that I kind of created that it's like, "OK, stand up straight, do all the things, and you'll be safe." Which is a normal thing for a kid to do, but it's still really exhausting. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And so it's interesting because you and I were both high achievers, excellent students who did great at school and all that good stuff. And it came with a cost, right? So, for you, your mom says it was self-motivated. My parents would probably say the same thing. Although I have had this conversation with my mom about it because my dad was the dad who would playfully say, "You come home with a 98, and he'd say, well, what happened to the other two points?" Yeah. And it was playful, but there was also this expectation there, like there was a message there, like you're supposed to be. And so, I think I did get the message that I was supposed to do everything well. And I actually just had this conversation with my 88-year-old mother this week. Oh, wow. Because I got the message: "Don't do anything you don't do well." And if, and that meant I didn't do a lot of things if I didn't do it well immediately. And so I didn't do things I wanted to because I didn't do it well quickly enough. 

Diane Dempster
Isn't that what fixed mindset versus growth mindset is – just to put in a plug for that. That's kind of this thing. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, it's a great way of looking at it. And my mom told me, basically, that she didn't hear it as a challenge or a problem. She's like, well, yeah, same for me, but she didn't have a problem with it. She just didn't do anything. She didn't do well. Whereas for me, I didn't like what I majored in. It led me down these paths I didn't want to be on because I could let myself do something where I was going to be successful at it.

Diane Dempster
Well, what you're describing is that part of this has like been generational. I mean, it has to do with how people are still parenting, and honestly, it's like, sometimes, it is us raising the bar. It's like, I want my kid to live up to their potential. That's one of the quintessential parenting things. Right? And a kid might hear that living up to your potential. It's like, "Oh my gosh, I have to get it perfect." So, they hear our language and interpret it in a certain way.  

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Great observation.

Diane Dempster
And so, we talk about this all the time when we're teaching about communication, which is like there are two parts of it there. One is what we say, and the other is what they hear. And so, being really clear, is it about trying hard? And if I see you observing, if I can observe it, you're trying hard and I got to tell you, our kids are trying really hard. Even if it doesn't look like they're trying hard, they're really trying hard. But I think that that's the piece of it. And, well, I'm dancing into the medicine a little bit here in the solution, but yeah. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Hold on to the solution 'cuz I think we've talked a little bit about what our experience was like, and I'm thinking about my kids, particularly one of my kids who I'll never forget when they said to me, "Don't you see, Mom, if I don't do it, I haven't done it wrong." So, there's that avoidance that comes that we think because they don't care, but it's not because they don't care; it's actually a different flavor of perfectionism. It's the kids who will work on something and then rip it up or the kids who will do all this work and then not turn it in, not because they haven't remembered to turn it but...

Diane Dempster
Because they purposely are like, “I can't turn this in.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Or one of my kids who could never choose a topic because she wanted to get the right topic. And so there's this avoidance behavior that we see that we get frustrated with his parents. And that we may not realize what's underneath it is their issue or sense of perfectionism or fear of failure or fear of success or misinterpreting our expectations or interpreting our expectations, right? However, it's showing up. So it's not just being tight and making sure everything's done right. Sometimes, avoidance can actually be about perfectionism. 

Diane Dempster
Well, and as you're saying, one of the things that I, again, I may be dancing into the solutions so roll me back, but what you're describing is like a challenge of indecision, right? And so, it's this sort of thing. I don't know what to choose because part of me thinks I might get it wrong. And there's part of me that doesn't know whether it would be, you know, it's like this, there's all this stuff. And I've always labeled myself as an indecisive human, and what I realized is that I do make decisions well, but I have to go through a process to figure out what the worst thing would happen is; what's the best thing that would happen? How do I decide? Could I really get this wrong? I mean, all these things, but I had to figure that out. I got to tell you in the last five or 10 years, I figured out how to help myself make decisions. I didn't know that when I was a kid. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and just making decisions can be exhausting. I mean, a lot of our kids are dealing with decision fatigue because they're making decisions we don't even realize they're making, right? You got, you got a kid in a classroom struggling with attention. I don't care what age. They're having to decide, "What am I paying attention to right now? And then how do I bring myself back and pay attention to that, and when do I stop paying attention and start paying attention?" All of these are transition points, and executive function challenges that our kids are dealing with, which require them to put more effort into processing information and making decisions than their neurotypical peers. And so we don't even realize all of the different ways they're trying to figure out what's expected of them all day long, and that can be exhausting. 

Diane Dempster
It can be exhausting, and I just want to put a plug in because the language you used made it sound like we don't all do that. And the reality is we all do that. But if you're a neurotypical, your ability to go, “I'm not paying attention to that. This is what I need to pay attention to,” is completely different than somebody who's neurospicy, right? If you think about the fact that, like, if we're sitting on the porch, we're having a great evening, we're listening to music, and all of a sudden, the neighbor's dog, seven houses down, starts barking and my partner's irritated. And it's like, well, just don't listen to it. It's like he can't not listen, and it's just like he can't tune it out. It's just not that easy. And so, just a reminder, the decision fatigue is different for neurospicy humans. The filtering is different for neurospicy. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right. Because we're dealing with often a lot of us, whether it's ADHD, anxiety, autism. We're getting flooded by a lot of information. We're receiving more information. And so we have to process more to get to the nugget, to the decision, to the action, to the focus we got to wade through. It's like wading through the muck to get to the clarity. 

Diane Dempster
So, that was a little segue about decision fatigue and how it ties into perfectionism, which is what we're really kind of focusing on talking about. Because people get stuck, they get stuck in a fixed mindset. They get stuck in, I got to do it right. They get stuck in, what do I even do? All of these things are flavors of perfectionism, and the symptoms that we see are stuck or distracted or avoided or what? There are so many different ways.  

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
It shows that hyper control. There are lots of ways it shows up. So, let's take a quick break, and then we can come back and talk about solutions.

All right. Welcome back, everybody. We are having a juicy conversation about perfectionism. We haven't even talked about progress. About perfectionism and all of the different ways that it can show up. It doesn't always look like what we think it might look like. Yeah. So, move us forward now. 

Diane Dempster
So there are many different ways to get into this, but part of it is always recognizing what's happening, right? Is it a fear-based sort of thing, and what are they afraid of? I'm afraid of making a mistake. I'm afraid of getting it wrong. I'm afraid that it's going to be hard. It's like this sort of, you've got to really kind of, it's almost like this creative conversation about, well, what is it? That's why you look like you're stuck. What's up? You look like you're having a hard time getting started.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And what jumped at me, as you said, is that our curiosity has got to come from a place that's a matter of fact and not judgmental. Yes. It may take our kids a bit to trust that we're there because if they're used to us coming in and saying, “You're stuck; You should do this; What's wrong? Get going.” Yeah. And when we come in and get curious, they may be a little hesitant at first. So, that's a note to be aware of. There are our expectations. And then we've been talking about us and about them, but when we think about progress versus perfection, which we like to say, that's about what we as parents hold for our kids as much as anything. It's like helping, helping us see how to be with their progress and setting expectations in a way that's healthy for them. What were you going to say?  

Diane Dempster
Well, this ties into so many things because the reality is, and this is the reminder, our kids are often 30 percent, three to five years behind their peers in some areas of executive function development, right? And so, we're like, OK, so perfection sometimes looks like, “I want you to behave like a regular ninth grader or a regular college student,” so it's technically not perfection. But it's this sort of, I want you to be somewhere other than where you are in terms of your capability. And that comes off as pressure to do more than you're capable of. And so that ties into and probably feels like Mom's never satisfied. She wants me to be perfect; Dad's got the bar so high that I can't deal with it. Whoever they want is holding the bar. And I'll acknowledge at this point that a lot of times it's the world that holds the bar or the teacher or the coach or whoever it is, but there's this sort of, I should be here, and the invitation is to go, OK, so where are they and how much are they right now? How much further are they than they were six months ago? What can they do now that they didn't used to be able to do? What's the next thing that they want to challenge themselves to do more of? It's like this, that we talk about independence being a process, not an end point, like you're moving them down the line instead of being like, OK, we got to get there and be done. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, well, it's funny. We were just talking about this in a coaching group for parents of teens about, you know, because there was one woman there who just celebrated her one year in the group, and she's like, I just get I'm getting it. You know, I'm not going anywhere. So there's a whole range of people in the group. And this is exactly what we were talking about: remembering to stop and give ourselves credit for the progress we've made for what is going better or well instead of that tendency to focus on what's not. 

Diane Dempster
Well, yeah, and I'm going to take that a step further. I was doing this in a small group last month, and we were talking about that. The exercise we were doing was something like, “I can be a good parent if it's a sort of I can't; I'm not a good parent if – right? – It's just sort of.” All of the rules we have about, you know, it's like, if my kid is failing band, I'm not a good parent. If my kid is blah, blah, blah, I'm not a good parent. And it's like this sort of black and white, impossible to achieve. Often, right? We're holding the standards so high and attaching our value as parents; this is the other layer of perfectionism. I'm attaching my value as a human being to my kid's success. And that like that, not only is that exhausting, but it's a setup. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Total setup. Well, so I'm thinking about it from the kid's lens, which is if I need my kid to perform so that I'm a good parent, then I'm going to hold impossible standards sometimes. And or I'm going to go back in and correct every little thing. And then you get a kid who's like, well, why should I even try? Because it doesn't matter what to do. It's never going to be good enough. It's never going to be right. I'm not even going to bother. And then they stop trying, and they're mad that they're unmotivated when the fact is that they're unmotivated because, frankly, it was never going to be good enough. 

Diane Dempster
Well, and, oh, by the way, that doesn't just happen with kids. It also happens with co-parents. Yeah. All the time. You're never satisfied. Fair enough. And then, you just stop trying. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Well, and, you know, my husband and I have had this conversation very transparently because he's the cook in the family, and when it comes to certain things, I won't even try to, like, get him a plate for lunch because I'm definitely not going to do it right. And so I've stopped trying, and that's not fair. And so we have this conversation, and there's a reason, right? I've been trained to not try. 

Diane Dempster
Well, you have to be aware of that, and you have to be able to communicate that and go,This is why I'm stuck. Can you help me? I don't want to be stuck.” And he needs to be able to go, “Oh yeah, maybe I need to figure out how to invite support.” It's like we talked about asking for help. That's something that just popped in as you were saying that, Elaine. It's like we talk all the time about the fact that our kids don't ask for help. And a lot of times, one of the key reasons our kids don't ask for help is that we haven't modeled it for them. We like it a certain way. We like it our way. We're going to do it our way. It's easier to do it ourselves than it is to have it done wrong. I mean, all of these things are food for perfectionism, whether it's ours, or, again, our perfectionism, our kids’.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, if we move into solution land, right?, the framework we often talk about is progress, not perfection. Look for improvement instead of, and like, focus on the process instead of the outcome. Diane mentioned that a little while ago. When you've got younger kids, or actually really all age, one way to practice progress, not perfection, is to not go back in behind people and correct it. Right? Don't check their homework. Let the teacher be the one to check their homework. Don't refold the laundry. Don't reload the dishwasher. Like, oh, Diane's covering your face, right? Because I've been noticing this now that my kids are adults. We're all thinking, independent people, right? So, well, you should get in the left lane there, or, you should really go that direction to get there. I see this in the car with my kids, now adult kids, all the time because they're not really trying to boss me around. It's just they're verbalizing their view of the world, and I'm verbalizing my view of the world, and it's not the same. 

Diane Dempster
Well, and it's really funny because you were talking about the dishwasher. Like there's, I think we've had several conversations about dishwashers on the podcast, but I need to ask my partner, because I suspect the story I tell myself is that he doesn't even notice when I reorganize the dishwasher. But if he does notice, like, I want to make sure that he knows that it's just because I do it differently and not because I think he's doing it wrong, right? And there's a difference there. It's like the sort of... 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, for the dishwasher might be the one exception when there's a right way and there's a wrong way. And there is a right way to do the dishwasher. I am sorry. 

Diane Dempster
Like there is like when you pack a dishwasher, like a raccoon on meth, that's just not the right way to do it. It's not, but that's a whole other conversation. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
All right. So. What else do we want to leave with as we wrap up this conversation? 

Diane Dempster
Well, the other thing I want to say is, so yes, focus on the progress, the process, take the baby steps, and identify the interim steps. It goes back to this sort of even just awareness of what it is, where it might come from, acknowledgment, like, I have all these rules in my head that have been there since I was 5 years old, and I was trying to be a good girl or wherever your stuff comes from. Do I really want this to be the way I'm living my life? Where is it? Where is it helping me? This is the question I love. Where is it helping me? And where is it getting in my way? The reality is that perfectionism has made you, as an adult, at times, really extraordinarily successful. And there are times that it can be exhausting. And so it's about figuring out, like, I think the language you use was like, is it toxic or is it productive? And so just even that awareness. And if you want to go in and dig at it and then figure out where it came from, go back and do some work on your childhood. That's fine. That's great. We like to do that. We love the deepening. But just being aware of it can make all the difference in the world. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, yeah, totally that. And here's the other thing that we haven't talked about and I want to bring it up because I think there are so many coexisting conditions in our community, right? And a lot of our kids have ADHD or autism and also anxiety, or maybe they have an OCD flavor of anxiety. This goes back to whether it is toxic or is it productive. I had a therapist who said to me once, I have a sibling with both ADHD and OCD. And he said to me, “The OCD saved that person's life because the ADHD had them all over the place, and the OCD helped them narrow in and focus.” And so, is it? Diagnosably OCD? Yes. Was it interfering to such an extent? Actually, it was helping them manage something else. Right? So, I often say that every tool has the potential to be a weapon, and every rule over-applied can become a liability. Right? And so yes, to progress, not perfection. And sometimes a little bit of, you know, excellence, perfectionism, if it's not damaging, can help manage other things.

So we don't want to throw anything out. We just want to understand it and be conscious, be with it, and be conscious of it. Right. Anything else? Great conversation. Yeah. This is fun. It was a good conversation. Take care, everybody. 

Tune in. The next episode is going to be a conversation with Kelly Dorfman, who is a nutritional guru who saved my family's life. So excited to talk to her. 

Diane Dempster
Well, and before we go, like let's everybody do their insights, right? So take a minute before you go on to the next episode and reflect on what we were talking about: perfectionism and, maybe one gem, one A-ha, whether it's about your kid's perfectionism or your own or your parents’, wherever you want to go with it. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right, that you want to take forward with you into the week. And as always, friends, thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids. You make a difference, truly. See you in the next episode. Thanks, everybody.