Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation on the Parenting with Impact podcast. Happy to have you back! It’s just us today because there’s something we really want to talk to you about. This episode isn’t so much a conversation as it is a teaching moment.

Diane Dempster: So, we’re going to teach you something! Sometimes we do that—we’ll talk about it, too—but today is mostly about teaching.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: There’s this tool we’ve been using and developing over the last couple of years, and we really started using it at the beginning of 2022. It’s incredibly powerful, and people are responding to it in such a positive way. Diane, I don’t know about you, but I use it all the time in my coaching, my teaching, and my groups.

Diane Dempster: Absolutely! It’s been really helpful. When we created Saturday School, we put together our toolbox—a collection of over 50 tools that we teach parents through various programs and settings. What I love about the tool we’re going to share today is that it’s incredibly concise. It’s a small number of things to remember, but it’s also foundational. So, when you’re feeling lost or struggling, this is what you can come back to—it’s all about getting grounded in the foundations.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and I would also say that this tool integrates a lot of the other tools—it brings everything together as a framework or a context. In our Coach Approach, part of what we do is provide tools, tips, and strategies. But if you don’t have the context and understanding of how they fit together, they can be harder to use. So, this is really about laying the foundation and providing the context for how to use the tools we offer in the Coach Approach. Does that make sense?

Diane Dempster: It’s called the Pyramid of Independence.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s today’s name.

Diane Dempster: That’s today’s name—yeah, we’re calling it the Pyramid of Independence.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We’ve had all sorts of names for it, but I love that one. I think it really captures what we’re aiming for. Anyway, I don’t want to just talk about it—I want to dive into it.

Diane Dempster: Yeah! But one more thing about it, right? The reason we call it the Pyramid of Independence is because that’s the ultimate goal. That’s what I want to instill in you as we have this conversation—the big picture of what we’re doing as parents is launching independent humans. These kids have been living with us since they were babies, and the goal is to guide them toward independence. You were going to add something to that?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, can you stop the share for just a sec? Thanks.

So here’s how I’ve been explaining it, and it’s really resonating with people: Our job as parents is to understand our kids well enough to help them understand themselves well enough to learn to manage themselves. That’s the most succinct way to put it.

We need to understand what’s going on with them—their fabulous, fascinating, complicated brains—so that we can help them understand themselves without judgment or shame. That way, they can start saying, Okay, yeah, I can learn how to manage myself. And the process starts with us—understanding what’s going on and supporting them through it, rather than dragging them kicking and screaming through that journey.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. And the other piece I was getting at is that what we’re really working toward is independence. Too often, we get stuck in the right now—like, I just need my kid to do their homework, or I need them to stop hitting their brother, or I want them to hang up their towel and take a shower. We get so caught up in the immediate challenges that we lose sight of the bigger goal.

What we’re really doing is developing self-awareness, life skills, and independence. That’s always a part of parenting, but for our kids—who are wired differently—we need to be even more explicit and intentional about it. When we shift our focus from just getting the chores done on Saturday to helping our kids build independence, everything looks different.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Absolutely. Absolutely. There’s so much more I want to say about this, but let’s dive into the core concept first, and we’ll come back to it. I want to share something from a cool theater experience we had last night—it connects in a weird way.

So, this is the Independence Pyramid—or actually, I think I originally called it the Relationship Pyramid. That’s where my brain went first. But really, it’s the Independence Pyramid. The foundation is relationship—but we’re not actually going to start there.

Diane Dempster: Right. We’re actually going to start with the piece that encompasses everything else—self-management and role clarity.

We’ve talked about these concepts in past episodes—one on the Four Roles of a Parent and another on Trigger Management. If we don’t have them up yet, we’ll make sure they’re available soon. Oh wait—we did do those episodes!

So, the Four Roles of a Parent are: Director, Collaborator, Supporter, and Champion. It’s important to be really clear about which role you’re playing in any given moment. Are you in a healthy role? Is it a role your kid actually needs you to be in? If you haven’t already, go listen to that podcast episode.

The other key piece is self-management—things like managing your own triggers, emotions, and overwhelm. This applies to both you and your kids. These are super foundational. We talk about relationship as a foundation, but self-management and role clarity? Those are like... I don’t know, mega-foundational!

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. And none of this works—fostering our kids’ independence, supporting their growth—unless we are managing ourselves. Your effectiveness as a parent is directly tied to how well you manage yourself and how clear you are about your role in relation to their independence at any given moment.

Diane Dempster: Wait a second—you just said something kind of harsh, and I like it. Because sometimes, we need to shake people up a little.

This won’t work unless you are actively working on managing yourself and getting really clear on what your role is—or should be—or what you want it to be. Seriously. You need to think about your role, and you need to manage yourself.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: You know, yesterday, I was interviewing Seth Perler for the Palooza podcast. We do Palooza every summer—so, for whenever you’re listening to this, the ADHD Parents Palooza happens in the summer.

One thing I love about Seth is that he’s unapologetic about this: We, as parents, have to do our own deep inner work. We have to manage ourselves—especially the emotional intensity that comes with raising complex kids.

I had some really amazing conversations with one of my kids last weekend about what kids really need from their parents. And what we landed on was this: Kids need parents to deal with their own stuff—outside of the parent-child relationship. They need us to manage our emotions without putting that burden on them, without saying, But I need…

Diane Dempster: Yes! I was just talking to a mom yesterday who was struggling with an overwhelming sense of guilt and shame about things that happened earlier in her child’s life. The child received a diagnosis later on, and now this mom is stuck in a cycle of I should have known better, I should have handled that differently.

We talked about how important it is for her to process that guilt and shame—so that she can show up for her kid in a new way, without carrying that weight into their interactions.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. The conversation I had with my child was about gender identity. We were really getting into the language around what kids need their parents to say—and not say—when they’re working through gender questions.

My daughter said something that really stuck with me: Parents shouldn’t say, ‘I still love you.’ Because that phrase implies there’s something wrong in the first place. Right?

And this applies to everything—not just gender identity. Whether it’s ADHD, autism, dyslexia—whatever your kid is navigating—as parents, we have to let go of what we thought their life was going to be so we can fully embrace who they are.

And honestly, there is a mourning or grieving process for parents. But if we bring that to our kids, it can make them feel really awful—like they’re a disappointment. So, we have to do that emotional processing on our own, without making it their burden.

It’s interesting—usually, when we talk about self-management, we focus on the immediate stuff: managing triggers, not yelling, staying calm in the moment. But it’s both—it’s self-management in the moment and the deeper, ongoing work of accepting what it truly means to parent these fabulous, complex kids.

Diane Dempster: I love that. That’s so good.

Okay, so—go listen to the podcast on role clarity. If you want more details, we’ll put them in the show notes. But definitely check that out—we’ll make sure to give it a shout-out.

Now, here’s the next piece. It’s interesting—we were teaching this concept the other day, and we made the bottom three layers of the pyramid larger than the top four. Those bottom layers are Relationship, Trust, and Communication.

Elaine and I always have this back-and-forth about what order these should go in—because relationship builds trust, and communication builds relationship, and communication builds trust. They all work together. But we’ve put them in this order—Relationship, Trust, Communication—because they form the foundation of the pyramid.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. And it’s funny, because we do go back and forth—like, Which one is more important? Which one builds on which?

But bottom line? The foundation of everything is relationship.

Any expert in this field—whether it’s an executive function coach working with students, a therapist, a parenting coach—will tell you the same thing: Everything starts with relationship.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. And what you just said reminds me of something.

I was working with a client recently whose child started seeing a therapist about a month ago. And in that first month, the therapist didn’t dive straight into problems—they focused on building the relationship. They played games together, they had fun, they connected. And now, after a month, the therapist is starting to push a little—because that foundation of trust has been established.

It’s such a great model, because it makes me think—How much time do we, as parents, spend focusing on getting stuff done versus actually strengthening our relationship with our kids?

Even though we’ve been in relationship with them for years—maybe 20 years, 15 years, 7 years—sometimes, we forget that relationships need ongoing care and attention.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, oftentimes, the relationship has gotten fractured, right? We've ended up in this control game. We didn’t really talk about role clarity, and I want to pull back for a moment because it occurs to me that we have to address that first before we get into the relationship.

When we have complex kids, you've heard us talk about the four roles of a parent. There's the Director, which is where we all start—though many of us get stuck there, and that can be a real challenge. Then there's Collaborator, Support, and Champion.

Ninety percent of the work we do with our kids should be in the space of Collaboration and Support—collaboration, support, collaboration, support. But if we’re stuck in Director mode, playing that role too often, it leads to control battles. It’s...

Diane Dempster: And our kids are going to see it! As I always say, they’re going to start seeing us as Dictator instead of Director. At some age, they’re like, “Mom, Dad, Grandma—stay out of it.” Right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. So, when it comes to rebuilding the relationship—if you’re a parent of younger kids, we want you to examine your role and start shifting out of Director mode and into Collaborator mode as soon as possible in different areas. Let the relationship guide that transition.

If you have older kids and you’re experiencing friction, control struggles, or power battles, then in order to shift from Director to Collaborator, you need to focus on the relationship first. That relationship is the foundation—it’s what builds trust. And your kids won’t give you permission to collaborate with them if they don’t feel that trust. That trust comes from relationship.

Diane Dempster: Well, let’s shift to that word—trust—because yes, it’s about trust. Our kids have to trust us. But there’s also a lot of research showing that kids are more available for learning when they’re in an environment where they feel trust.

And it’s not just about our kids trusting us—it’s also about them trusting themselves. It’s about us trusting our kids. And it’s about us trusting ourselves. There’s this four-way dynamic with trust that’s always at play. But really, there needs to be this energy of trust in the relationship in order for us to move forward. That’s what we’re talking about here—we’re trying to move up the pyramid.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. And trust in a relationship comes from the relationship itself. So, we have to connect first—find ways to connect that aren’t about the “doing” of life. Just being together, loving each other, playing together—whatever that looks like.

Diane Dempster: Even playing video games with our kids, even if we don’t like video games at all, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. Because that kind of connection allows trust to grow.

But we also need to be careful not to use trust as a weapon. It’s not “I’ll trust you if…” or “I’ll trust you when…”. Trust develops when we are in connection and in relationship with each other.

Diane Dempster: Right. And I think part of this—well, this could be a longer conversation, and we can skip over it if you want—but it’s about how we view trust.

If we see trust as something that must never be broken, then we’re always on high alert. And let’s be real—our kids are going to do things that break our trust. And we, as parents, sometimes do things that break our own trust.

If we expect trust to always be intact, then when it gets broken, it feels catastrophic. But if instead, we think of trust like a marble jar—something that can be added to and taken from—it changes how we handle it.

Sometimes trust gets broken. Sometimes our kids do things that make us trust them less for a while. But they can build it back. Trust isn’t a one-time, all-or-nothing thing—it’s a dynamic process. And when we see it that way, we can respond differently.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, it took me a minute to figure out what you meant by a miracle chair, but I think I got it.

Diane Dempster: Oh yeah, no. So, the whole—moreover, that's a whole other thing about positivity, where all of our interactions either add a marble to the jar, take marbles out, or leave them alone. It’s a whole other analogy. Sorry, I didn’t mean to jump in there.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s totally cool. We should do a marble jar podcast episode.

Diane Dempster: Sorry to derail that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I’ll put that down. So yeah, this notion is that we earn trust, we build trust, we foster trust, we cultivate trust—it doesn’t just exist or not exist. Trust is constantly in motion.

I’m thinking about a time when one of my kids got caught smoking pot at 15. A friend’s mom found out, and she called me, saying, "I hate to tell you this, but here’s what the kids were doing this weekend." Props to that mom for being honest with me.

When my husband and I had that conversation with our child, it actually turned out to be really meaningful. We said, “This has broken our trust,” but because we had a strong foundation, we knew he wanted us to trust—

Diane Dempster: And I knew that was coming, but I wasn’t going to say it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right—he wanted us to trust him. It was important to him. So, we were able to discuss consequences and what it would take to rebuild trust.

That meant things like not going out independently with friends for a couple of weeks—I honestly don’t even remember the exact details anymore. But the point is, the conversation became about, “We really want to be able to trust you.” And my kid was like, “Hey, I really want you to trust me.”

So, instead of just feeling upset that trust had been broken, we were able to rebuild it consciously and clearly.

Diane Dempster: Well, and yeah, that kind of segues us into communication. What you're highlighting is that the way you and your husband handled that conversation when you found out your kid was smoking pot was probably very different from how a lot of parents might react in that situation.

So let’s talk about communication—because it really does make a difference in building trust. Part of what maintained trust in that moment was likely how you approached the conversation. Fair?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. The trust was broken, and we needed to start rebuilding it—putting more marbles back in the jar, so to speak. And that process was built on the foundation of our relationship.

As you said, how we communicated made a huge difference. We didn’t respond by freaking out, yelling, or saying, “I can’t believe you! I can’t trust you anymore!” We didn’t go to that catastrophizing place, even though there’s a part of you that wants to. You want to scare them straight, make them worried.

Now, I won’t say I was the kindest, most gentle parent in that moment—I wasn’t just saying, “Oh honey, it’s okay.” That wasn’t my approach. But I was holding space with compassion and love, without judging him as a person for his behavior.

The tools we used in that conversation are things we talk about on other podcasts. We used Design and ACE—acknowledging the situation, showing compassion, and understanding how it happened. We had been teenagers once too. I’ve self-disclosed many times that I dealt with similar issues as a teenager.

Then we had a conversation about trust: Here’s what you can count on us for, and here’s what we need to be able to count on you for. A big part of that was setting boundaries—one of the most important ones being that he was never to get in a car with someone who was intoxicated. That was the moment that conversation really solidified.

And that’s the thing—sometimes, the hardest situations with our kids create opportunities for even more powerful and important conversations.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, absolutely. I just want to check in on this because we’re only about a third of the way up the pyramid. But communication is another topic we should—or if we haven’t already—dedicate a whole podcast to. There are so many tools we teach in this area to improve the way we interact with our kids.

It’s about shifting from telling to asking, fostering mutual respect, and using the kind of communication strategies you just described in your conversation with your kiddo. So how do we—

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: To some extent, there’s only so much we can do in a podcast, right? If someone really wants to learn these skills, that’s what Saturday School is for.

Saturday School is your foundational training in the coach approach, where all of these tools are taught in depth. What we’re trying to do here is give a framework—help people understand what these skills are for and how they can use them. But we can’t cover everything in one podcast.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, I appreciate that. So, should we move on to collaboration?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes. But before we do, I want to add one more thing.

We’ve talked about self-management and role clarity, which are the context. Then we have relationship trust and communication, which form the foundation—the core of everything.

Then, at the upper levels, we have collaboration, problem-solving, buy-in, and ownership. These elements weave together. They build on each other, but they’re also fluid—we could move them around and still make a strong case for how they interconnect.

But once you have trust and communication, that’s when you can move into collaboration. That’s where you and your child start to share an agenda, and where you help them take ownership of their own goals.

And from there, collaboration naturally leads into problem-solving. One of the most important things we can do as parents is to guide our kids through the problem-solving process—again and again—so they develop those skills over time.

Diane Dempster: We want to develop problem solvers. But I think a lot of parents get stuck in this cycle—like a bright blue light shining in their face.

It’s that instinctive reaction: Oh, there’s a problem—I have to solve it. Oh, there’s another problem—I have to fix it. Then, maybe they think, I want my kid to help me solve it, but the kid doesn’t care. So the parent just ends up solving the problem themselves, and it turns into an endless loop.

That loop pulls us back into director mode more than we want to be, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. That’s why we intentionally chose to move away from that approach in this whole pyramid.

Diane Dempster: Right, because when we focus only on solving the problem, we miss the bigger picture. The real goal isn’t just to fix the issue—it’s to solve it with our kid while teaching them the skill of problem-solving.

To do that, we have to step back and think about relationship trust, communication, collaboration—all these foundational pieces.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. That’s why collaboration and problem-solving sit right at the center of this framework. It’s the key transition point—from relationship trust to ownership and autonomy.

And honestly, sometimes I think ownership should come down a level, because this whole thing is fluid. But the real question we need to ask ourselves when thinking about collaboration and problem-solving is about agency.

Whose agenda is it? Is it your agenda? Is it theirs? Are you supporting them in their own agenda, or are you dragging them into yours?

Because that’s the key difference—if you’re dragging them into your agenda, you’re not in collaboration mode. You’re back in director mode. And being a visionary is different.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. Go ahead.

Diane Dempster: I was thinking about how collaboration and problem-solving sit in the middle of this framework. So many parents say, My kid won’t ask for help. My kid won’t work with me. They don’t collaborate.

For a lot of families, the dynamic of collaboration and problem-solving is already broken.

It was really interesting—I was sitting outside having coffee the other day, and my neighbor, who has a three-year-old, was working through a problem with their child on the back porch. I just listened for a while, and it was fascinating.

The dad was actively solving the problem out loud with his three-year-old—How should we do this? What do you think? It was a truly collaborative process. And the difference was striking—at age three, there was so much trust, open communication, and a willingness to work together. But somewhere along the way, that often starts to fade.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s such an interesting point. This has come up a lot this year.

We actually do this really well when our kids are toddlers. But then, when they hit grade school, teachers and other adults start emphasizing independence. We take that cue and start letting go too soon—moving into Phase Four of parenting way before they’re ready.

Instead of staying in that collaborative space, we shift too quickly into expecting them to manage everything on their own. But if we just kept doing what we naturally do with toddlers—giving choices, asking for their input—we’d see a completely different dynamic as they grow.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. Because at its core, it’s about teaching collaboration.

Think about how much has changed in education over the years. My oldest is 37, and my youngest is 21. The way my 37-year-old learned in school was so different from my 21-year-old’s experience.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What do you mean? The structure of the school itself?

Diane Dempster: No, I mean the style of learning.

Education today is much more collaborative—kids are working in teams, writing papers together, and problem-solving in groups. That just wasn’t the case decades ago.

Since kids are already being taught these collaboration skills in school, we as parents can tap into that energy at home. If we stay aligned with that shift—keeping collaboration as a core part of how we interact—it can make a huge difference in maintaining that dynamic over time.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We need to wrap up this conversation, but there’s one more thing on my mind.

When we teach our model—whether it’s in Sanity School or wherever people learn our Coach Approach—we talk about taking AIM at both a macro level and a micro level.

In some ways, this Independence Pyramid reflects both.

On one hand, we’re looking at the big picture: How do we foster independence over time with our kids?

But on the other hand, this process also happens on a micro level, issue by issue. Sometimes we’re focused on overall independence. Other times, it’s about one specific area—like keeping their room clean, managing schoolwork, getting a job, or handling their schedule responsibly.

This framework helps us step back and ask: How are we doing in terms of fostering independence? Not just in general, but also in these specific aspects where we’re inviting our kids to take ownership.

Diane Dempster: Yes! And as you’re saying that, Elaine, I just want to remind everyone—it’s not just about these individual tasks. It’s about the big picture.

And I think, for a lot of us, that brings us back to your earlier point about self-management—and the fear, guilt, and pressure that can come with parenting complex kids.

If we can keep our eye on the big picture—that someday, at some point, the goal is to launch independent young adults—it can help us put things into perspective.

It’s a reminder that we have time.

It’s not just about the towel on the floor. It’s not about the dishes in the sink. It’s not about the shoes in the dining room or the unfinished homework.

It’s about life skills. It’s about the long-term process of guiding our kids as they grow into independence.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. And ultimately, that brings us back to where we started.

Our job as parents is to understand our kids well enough so that they can understand themselves—well enough to want to manage themselves. That’s really what this is all about.

We hope this conversation has given you a solid foundation. And if you’re ever unsure where to focus, we’ve been saying for the past ten years: If you don’t know where to start, start with self-care or relationships.

Those two foundations—taking care of yourself and staying calm and present—will never steer you wrong.

Diane Dempster: Maybe we should even call it self-management and relationship-building.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, yeah. It’s always evolving, right?

All right—anything else for today?

Diane Dempster: No, just—thank you for being here. And thank you for what you do for yourself and for your kids.

At the end of the day, it makes a difference.

Take care.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Bye, everybody!