Lori Crowley
I am an LMFT, LPCC, and also a life coach, because I think it takes multiple flavors of approach when working with the folks and populations that I do. So I like to be able to offer more than one way. I went back to school later in life. I have a lot of neurodivergence in my family, as well as in my lived experience, and I just sort of found the supports that were available to me and to my family were just really lacking. So I kind of went back to school to be the therapist that I always wished we could find for our family.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I just want to interrupt to say I can totally relate. That's where I was—on the path to become the therapist my family needed—when I discovered coaching. That derailed me from that path to this other path. So I can totally relate.

Lori Crowley
Yeah, I got really frustrated. I did the life coaching piece, and I've been a life coach since like 2003. It works very well, but there were certain arenas I was in where I still wasn't getting the reinforcement I felt my clients needed. And so I was like, "OK, fine. I'll just go put some more letters behind my name." Not that it's going to change anything, except that I'm going to have to pay a lot of money and put some stupid letters behind my name.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
But you know what? What you're speaking to is neuro-education and the need and the importance. So for you, it's blending coaching with an LPC. For me, it was neuro-informed coaching—for Diane and me—and all of it is about elevating the education of the adults in this sphere, in this arena, to understand how neurodiversity plays in all of these other issues we're dealing with.

Lori Crowley
That's exactly it. And it's kind of the desire to change the standard of care. And, you know, one way to make change is to do it from the side.
So yeah, I mean, that's my ultimate life goal—to change the standard of care as it relates to celebrating the neurodivergent lived experience. So yeah, that's kind of how I got here.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So you guys can imagine—when Lori and I first met and had this conversation and she said that—I was like, "Really? That's what I want to do!" I'm about changing the medical model. And somebody—a colleague I work with a few months ago—said to me, "You're not about changing the model, I think you're about improving the model."
So I like your language, Lori, around changing the standard of care. Really elevating and improving the standard of care. Yeah, exactly. Beautiful.
So the audience that you pay attention to—the community that you serve and support—how would you describe that?

Lori Crowley
So I always say to people, anyone who is in my practice is either neurodivergent or neurodivergent adjacent. So what that means—I do a lot of parenting work, because I think that part of the challenge of being delivered into this broken system is that you aren't given the right frame, the right pair of glasses, to understand your child. And there's a lot of reeducating or deprogramming that needs to be done.

That is a huge part of the work that I'm doing because, you know, what I'm hoping is that as we help all of these families view their lived experiences through this more affirming lens, we can just totally change the dialogue. And the ways that that feeds into the world is exponential.

So I work with a constellation of folks that have constellation thinking, which I absolutely love. I don't necessarily have a fixed "type" except that you need to at least be neurodivergent adjacent. Because there are tons of neurotypical folks out there that you can get support from—if you're not supporting this community. So that's the only requirement to come in here.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Understood. So let's talk about that. I love that notion. I think that's very much, again, in alignment with what we do at Impact—that notion of reeducating and deprogramming. I often say to parents, it took you however many years it took you to get to this point. It's going to take a little time to understand where you are and turn things around a little bit. So what is it that needs reeducation and/or when does it need deprogramming? Let's look at both of those. Where do you want to start?

Lori Crowley
Well, you know, it's interesting, because whenever I found something that really helped our household—that really helped our system—it seemed to live in the occupational therapy world. It was very much about this understanding of what is happening somatically.

I didn't have all those vocabulary words back then, but the more I worked with it, the more clear it became. And I knew very early on that we were dealing with an overwhelm. I just didn't understand enough about that sensory word and the sensory overwhelm that my kids were experiencing—and then how that manifested.
And so that piece—that reeducation piece—starts right there. I want to help you see something that you maybe have been missing. I want to draw some dots there.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And so what we're saying is: we want to help families—parents—see the ways in which their kids are experiencing the world from a sensory perspective, and the challenges that the world may be posing to them from a sensory perspective.
Understanding that it's not just how the kids are in the world, but it's how the world shows up for them—that's part of what they're dealing with.

Lori Crowley
And this is the thing that I love about this concept is that it feeds through. It's not just what you do with parents, it's what you do with the individual as well. Right? Right. And so I use the idea of like, this is like a stone in the pond and the ripples, you know, are going to, you know, move out. And I always tell people, anything that you learn in here is going to work generically across the human spectrum. Because as human beings, we all experience the world. Through sensation and everything starts with a sensation. And so by beginning our dialogue there and you know, whether we're talking about like, you know, if I'm working with individuals and we're talking about like, what's it like to be in your body? What is your experience of the world?

How do you feel seen, how do you feel? Ease and comfortable, and we get into all kinds of different pieces where often the gender construct and the gender idea and, you know, again, comfort in the body, it all comes in through that door. So by starting there, right? So the first thing that we do is we talk about some psychoeducation about the sensory system. Talk about doing some very low-key sensory profiling. Not like, you know, I mean, sometimes I laugh that if, you know, my first few sessions probably feel like going to an occupational therapies, you know, therapist's office. But when we start to talk about things that, you know, are resourcing to us or things that cost us spoons, if we're gonna use spoons theory, which I think is such a powerful concept.

And you know, a lot of parents are like, what is that? I don't even know. So, I mean, again, part of it is just educating the vernacular of the community. But, you know, and again, helping people to understand what is a resource and what is a a like it that's pulling from you, right? From a drain a spoon perspective. Right. And it's funny because we, we talk about, say, you know, ASMRs, right? And the, the, the huge. Movement of an ASMR, just for folks who don't know, is an autonomous sensory meridian response, and there's a ton of videos out in the atmosphere on ASMR and it's this concept. That was coined in 2010 around this sensation that some people experience, and that it starts with a little bit of oftentimes like tingling, like maybe in the scalp and kinda works down the body and leaves people with sort of a, you know, relaxed sort of moment.

And talking about the fact that when you get so dysregulated and then if you do experience this sort of like. Refreshing moment, right? It was like, you know, sometimes people have it, like they'll listen to music and they'll talk about getting chills. Like, ah, that is, that is what we're talking about when we talk about ASMR. And so when we begin to understand our sensory profile, what is it like to be in the world, in our body? And for a lot of my clients, their body hasn't been a safe place. Yeah, because sensory comes in in such a bombardment. And you know, there are some really interesting studies on the autistic brain that have come out of Solomon's lab at UC Davis Mind Institute, and Carnegie Mellon's, and done some really functional MRI. Cool studies.
But there's a higher degree of connection or connectivity through the default mode network part of the brain, which brings sensory information in, in an autistic brain. Wow. That makes a lot of sense why we have sensory overwhelm overload. So, yeah, so again, it's just like helping if it's parents understand that there is neurological piece at work here, and it isn't about choice. It isn't that my kid won't do these things. So we talk a lot about the difference between can't versus won't.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, indeed.

Lori Crowley
What does that look like?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. So, let me pause you for a minute because you've brought up a number of different topics and I wanna manage our expectations and our time here. We're gonna take a quick break and then I'm gonna come back and kinda lay it out and see where we can go.

My guest is Lori Crowley and we are talking about the sensory system, about ASMR, which is autonomous sensory meridian response, that that way in which some people find aspects of sensory that kind of downregulate that can calm or relax them and to understand that people in the neurodiversity space, whether they're people on the autism spectrum or really, we haven't said this, but all kinds of, of different neurodiversity have a distinct relationship with their sensory systems. And so sometimes helping people navigate neurodiversity is about helping them really understand what's happening from them as a sensory, on a sensory level, so that we can help them learn to support themselves. You mentioned a couple of things that I wanna go back to. You mentioned Spoon Theory, so I wanna make sure we explain that for parents who may not understand what that is.

I believe ADHD should be renamed something in the context of Spoon Theory. So I'm a big fan. But also this notion of helping our kids understand what. Is a resource for them. And what is a drain for them to really look at the energy regulation part of living in our bodies. That is an area of executive function that we don't think about a lot. And so to identify what's an energy resource versus what's an energy drain, um, and then we'll see where that takes us and what time we have left with that and where that plays in with gender. 'cause you've also mentioned for a lot of kids who we would call kind of gender kids, if there's a sense of disconnect in their own body it's gonna be compounded by this sensory, so explain theory for starters.

Lori Crowley
So, just a real quick recap of Spoon Theory. The way I had it described to me was like, it's like looking at the ocean and somebody gives you a spoon and tells you that you have to lay it all out—the ocean—and you only get so many spoons each day. So this was their way of saying they felt exceedingly overwhelmed by the amount of things that they needed to do, and they were being asked to do it simply with just a spoon.

But if you wanna take it to moving from this overwhelm, it's that spoons are like a measure of energy and you only get so many a day. And so, you know, sometimes an activity might take you one spoon today because things are going well and you woke up on time and the shower didn't totally repulse you and you were able to brush your teeth or whatever the amount of things that you needed to do.

Lori Crowley
It only took me a spoon today, but, you know, I wake up the next day and I didn't get a good night's sleep and my skin feels really prickly and now I'm gonna have to take that shower and I don't wanna take that shower and I have to like spend all this energy to get myself into the shower. And so unfortunately, the same activity that only took me one spoon yesterday is gonna take me four spoons, and I only had six to start with. So it's kind of this idea of trying to talk about it from a—there's a budget, right? Oftentimes the budget doesn't allocation show up.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
You have a certain number of spoons every day and, and as adults, I think we take for granted so many aspects of our day that we just move through that don't take that many spoons for us. But when you have kids with neurodiversity, sensory issues, all of these other things, navigating, moving through the world is like molasses and it can take tons and tons of spoons, whereas we move effortlessly through and expect them to do the same, which may not be a realistic expectation.

Lori Crowley
Yeah, and I think it's really great to think about it from a system perspective, right? Because, as a support to an individual that is struggling, right? It might take you more spoons to support that activity or that individual. So spoons are not—this is not unique to the neurodivergent community. Again, this is that concept of these are great things for framing, and they apply across the human spectrum of being alive.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So let's talk a little bit about the differentiation between helping our kids identify what resources them, what nourishes them, and what drains them, and how to help them navigate. Because in any given day, there are gonna be things that replenish them and things that deplete, and that's what it is to get through the day. That's why we're tired at the end of every day, right?

Lori Crowley
Yeah. And that's why I really love to do this sensory profile piece, because even within one sensation—so let's just take, you know, sound, okay? You can be what we call sensory seeking and sensory avoidant in the same sensation. So you might have somebody that, you know, every time there's an unexpected sound or—God forbid—a loud, unexpected sound, that, you know, has noise canceling headphones on all the time. That same person may have a particular sound that is very comforting to them, that is resourcing to them. So whether it's music or it's something rhythmic or it's—so again, it's trying to understand the sensory profile. And it doesn't, you know, "Oh, they have sensitive hearing." You can't—or it—yes, and they may also have a resource inside of that sensation.

So by doing a sensory profile that kind of says the basic five: smell, taste, touch, sight, hearing—I always miss one, but I got 'em all this morning—and then we have four others that we talk about. The vestibular, which is balance; proprioception, which is where you are in space; and interoception, which is such an important one because these are sensations that come from inside.

And many OTs will tell you this is the key to modulation, is working on your interoception, because this is when you start to tell, "I'm losing my spoons." This is when we start to see, "Ooh, this is too much for me," because we will begin to get internal messages that I'm getting overwhelmed. And then the last one is neuroception, which is your ability to say whether or not you're safe in the environment. So we're doing a huge fire hose. I really don't know how, in my neurodivergent brain, to just talk about a piece, 'cause it doesn't make sense.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
No, but there is something about acknowledging the sensory experience for someone and helping them begin to learn. So it's funny—we're coming off when we're recording this off of a holiday where my kids were in town, my adult kids, and we were sitting around a fire pit. And my 30-year-old said to my 24-year-old, "You know, I miss not getting dizzy anymore."

And so it was this conversation because part of navigating the vestibular system and the balance and the occupational therapy when they were little was identifying that they didn't get dizzy, and that that's actually probably not the healthiest thing for them to function through the world with. But for them as children, they thought it was a superpower. And so we're helping them navigate their sensory space in the world, but it's not always a comfortable shift for them.

So will you talk about that? And let's blend that before we wrap today. Let's tie that into—part of the reason that I had reached out to you originally is 'cause I wanted somebody to talk with me around about integrating neurodiversity and kids with gender differences.

Lori Crowley
Yeah. And I do believe that it lays on top of each other in terms of, "What is my experience of my body? What makes sense to me? What feels right? What resonates? What is causing me to be uncomfortable?" Just because somebody says, "This is the way it is," doesn't necessarily mean that that is the way it is and or the way I want it to be for me.

Well, you know, I mean, again, I'm a person that believes that—I have a different definition of resilience. My definition of resilience is that you see more than one way to get through, right? And that when we get in that space of we've been dictated to or we've been told, "This is the confine, and this is the box that you have to exist inside," it can cause you to totally experience the world from a traumatic standpoint because you've lost agency, you're overwhelmed, and there's this sense that you're in for imminent demise.

And so that absolutely plays into our identity, how we show up in the world, how we feel comfortable, how we experience the world. So they interplay really tightly. And it doesn't surprise me that we see the amount of neuro-queer identifying individuals that we do, because the rules, the lived experience, is different in this brain.

And, you know, are they one-to-one correlation? Absolutely not. But there is a very high co-occurrence of neurodivergence and gender identity exploration.
Not because they don't know, but because their confines—I always say people, "Oh, you know, neurodivergent people think out of the box," and my response is, "No, they don't. There is no box. There is their box."
Right, right. So to me, it makes total sense that that would correspond to every area of being alive for a neurodivergent person.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and tying it back, it also correlates to when your body doesn't feel aligned with how it's been identified or with the messages you get, and you're kind of already feeling a little out of sync with your body. It's gonna have a compounding effect as well.

Lori Crowley
Yep. Yep. Yeah, absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, Lori, this is so interesting, and there's so much more we could talk about. Let me tell people how they can find out about you, and then let's figure out where we wanna wrap this conversation. OK?

Lori has some resources for you to check out if you're interested in finding out more at her website, which is exptherapy.com. There's a curated resource page on neurodivergence. There's gender resources. She also does some work with the Trans Family Alliance, if that issue is relevant to you and something you might want to find more about. All of those links are gonna be available in the show notes.
So, as we come to wrap this conversation, what have we been talking about? What's the important takeaway that you hope people leave with today? Is there something we haven't talked about that you wanna mention? Or is there something we have talked about that you wanna button up for people?

Lori Crowley
I think it's just inviting people to bring a curious mind to what it is that you're seeing in the world, in individuals, rather than thinking that you know what that is or what that is about. No matter what we're talking about—in the political climate that we're currently in, in the classroom environment that we currently are in—I mean, just any place that you find yourself. We just really wanna invite people to bring a curious mind and to really try and see what it is you're looking at.

So when I look at individuals through that sensory lens, that somatic lens, I think it helps me understand how to engage so much more. Because if I look at it and I see this person is really emitting a great deal of dysregulation—it's a hard word to try and put your arms around, but you can tell when somebody feels safe and can engage, and when somebody is guarded or defended or just uncomfortable. And if you can kind of, like I said, bring that curious mind—"What is going on here? What am I looking at? What is this about?"—and be able to engage at that level with some compassion and, you know, bringing connection to the interaction, you're gonna learn so much. And it's gonna give you the opportunity to have some resilience because you're gonna be able to see more than one way to engage with whatever it is you're experiencing.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
That's such a beautiful way to close this—that there's no one way forward. The way forward is to stay curious and to connect and to meet people in our families where they are and help them connect with themselves, is really what I hear you say.

Lori Crowley
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
It's feeling safe with us, but also feeling safe with themselves.

Lori Crowley
Well, it's that stone in the pond, you know. Drop it in and then it ripples out. It just makes for such a richer exchange. And, you know, it helps when you have a similar pair of glasses on, 'cause you're seeing similar things.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Beautiful. Lori, thank you. Before we wrap, do you have a favorite quote or motto that you wanna share with our community?

Lori Crowley
I do. It's ironically tattooed on my arm. It's, "As we seek, so shall we find." So, I think it's really a powerful thing. What's my mindset? What am I bringing? What am I looking for? Because whatever I'm looking for, I'm gonna find. So, yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, it reminds me of that whole notion of kind of "Be the change you wanna see in the world," and the being and how we approach something. What I like to say a lot is that "our perspective is our reality."

Lori Crowley
Yeah, exactly.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
"As we seek, so shall we find." That's beautiful.

Lori Crowley
Yes. And it's not—it's a lyric from a song from Blues Traveler, so I won't get to claim it, but you know, it really resonated with me.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
All right, my friend. Thank you. Thank you for being here. Thank you for supporting your community and our shared community in such a beautiful and soulful way.

Lori Crowley
Yeah, right back at you. It's those, you know, coming together to fill the gap of what we experienced. Because you shouldn't have to reinvent the wheel. Right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
No, indeed. So thank you for being here. To those of you listening, thank you for tuning in, for doing the work that you're doing to support yourself and your family. Take a minute to think about the conversation that Lori and I have just had. We've talked about sensory awareness. We've talked about Spoon Theory. We've talked about taking an affirming lens. What are you taking away from this conversation? What's the one insight, the nugget, the A-ha that you're taking away? And is there some way that you wanna apply it in the week ahead for you? What do you wanna do with what you've taken from today?

And as always, my friends, thank you for doing what you do and being who you be for yourself and for your kids. It makes an extraordinary difference. And I will see you on the next conversation. Take care, everybody.