Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation on the Parenting with Impact podcast. You’ve got the Diane and Elaine show again!

Diane Dempster: Yep, it’s us again—sorry, you’re stuck with us.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: But today, we’re diving into a really, really, really important topic. We were just talking about it beforehand, and we’re so excited to discuss this. It’s been a huge issue over the last couple of years. While it’s not new, the pandemic has amplified it—like the same issue on steroids. Right?

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So today, we’re going to talk about school refusal and resistance to going to school. It’s something we used to see primarily in teenagers, but now we’re seeing it in kids as young as six years old.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, and it’s happening for a lot of different reasons and presenting a lot of challenges. I think part of the dynamic is that, because kids were out of the school environment during the pandemic, their relationship with school has shifted. Our kids are feeling out of control, and they’re trying to grab on to some semblance of control. There are so many moving parts to this.

I’ve been thinking a bit about how to organize this conversation, but I believe the best place to start is with our relationship to the situation. It’s sort of about...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Let’s lay the framework first, right?

Diane Dempster: Yeah. Right. The most important part of this, I think, before you even think about anything else, is how you are looking at the situation. Because...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: We say this over and over again—if you’re freaking out about something, if you’re in fix-it mode, catastrophizing, or thinking, They have to go to school, at a bare minimum... Yeah, this is absolutely something reasonable to freak out about. Totally understandable and valid. But if you’re freaking out, you’re not going to be able to be present and problem-solve in the same way. That’s really the key thing to kick off with.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I want to take it back even one step further.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: The reality we’re facing now is that a lot of kids are either refusing or resisting school—whether that’s physically going to school, doing schoolwork, or engaging with school the way they used to. As you said, they’ve been introduced to a new framework around school, and they’ve realized there are other priorities in life. We learned a lot about this during the pandemic.

The old paradigm was that our job as parents was to make sure our kids went to school. That’s how we saw our role. Now, it’s almost shifted. Our job has become to enroll our kids in the idea of going to school—to help them see why it’s important—because they no longer perceive it as a given or an expectation in the same way they might have just a few years ago.

Diane Dempster: Well, and let me add to that—this is an important piece. They may see school as important. They may even understand that they want to go to school.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: They might even secretly want to go to school, but for whatever reason, it’s hard for them to take that action.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It’s that difference between can’t and won’t, right?

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We often think they won’t go to school, but for a lot of kids, whether it’s due to neurological reasons, social reasons, or some combination of the two, it’s more that they feel like they can’t get themselves to go.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. And even within that “can’t,” there’s nuance. “Can’t get themselves to go” is different from “won’t go,” right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Absolutely.

Diane Dempster: It’s about that space in between. And part of what’s relevant here is the role of coping mechanisms. If a child’s coping mechanism is avoidance—whether it’s because they’re overwhelmed, frustrated, triggered, or something else—that becomes a critical piece of the conversation.

It’s like what I often talk about: people tend to be controllers, avoiders, or pleasers as their primary coping mechanisms. If your kid…

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: The world is overwhelming right now, by the way.

Diane Dempster: Right. The world is overwhelming and stressful.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Frustrating and triggering, right?

Diane Dempster: Exactly. So let’s just start with the assumption that your kid is overwhelmed—period. If your child’s coping mechanism for dealing with overwhelm is avoidance, it makes perfect sense that they wouldn’t want to go to school. They’re avoiding the thing that’s causing them stress.

For example, if they’re struggling in a class or feel behind on their homework, that avoidance kicks in. I’ve got one mom whose kid is having a hard time in just one class. She’s not doing well, and as a result, she’s avoiding school entirely. She doesn’t want to face that one class, that one teacher, and now it’s snowballed. She’s so far behind in her work that it’s turned into this big, complicated mess.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. And I was thinking of another example from a family I’m working with. The mom finally realized it’s not that her son doesn’t want to go to school at all. He just doesn’t want to go to the very first part of the day—homeroom—because he finds it boring. So what does he do? He stalls, delays, and drags his feet so he consistently shows up 10 minutes late, just enough to miss the part of the day that isn’t working for him.

Diane Dempster: He doesn’t want to. Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. So there’s this construct around this conversation—this context, I guess—which is that we’re in a difficult environment in relation to school. The previous norms we used to have about school have kind of broken down, and we don’t really have a new paradigm for what it means for someone to consistently attend school.

Because they went to school from home for such a long time, there’s this mindset of, "Why should I have to go to school now?" So we’re in this muddled middle place of transition, and there’s a lot of stress on top of it. As a result, we’re dealing with a lot of school refusal and resistance.

I’m glad we took the time to lay the framework here because so many people are dealing with this. We’re going to offer some solutions on how to address it and how to begin working through it, knowing that it takes time. But I think it was important to set the stage first.

Diane Dempster: Right. And I liked that you just said that, Elaine, because this does take time. I want to be gentle about this—it’s not likely that your kid is going to wake up tomorrow and everything will suddenly be fine.

It’s interesting—I know a mom whose child hadn’t gone to school for four months but decided, after spring break, that they were going to try going back. The child made it through the first three-quarters of the first day before they just couldn’t cope anymore. They called their mom, and she said, "Congratulations, great job! I’m so glad you made it through most of the day."

It’s important to acknowledge that it’s not straightforward, and it’s not easy. Progress takes time and patience.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: There’s this idea of incremental progress that we’re aiming for here. We often talk about "progress, not perfection." If the end goal is to get our kids back into a regular relationship with school—into consistent engagement with their education, whatever that looks like for them—we need to accept that there will be steps along the way.

We’re not going to go from 0 to 60 overnight. It’s about working them into the process gradually, rather than only focusing on holding them accountable for the final outcome.

Diane Dempster: And that brings me back to the reminder I started with a few minutes ago: you’ve got to stay calm about this. You need to be okay with where they are now in order to help them move forward.

If you’re freaking out about where they’re at, you’re likely to approach the situation in a non-collaborative, "fix-it" mode—whether it’s as a "fix-it mom" or a "fix-it dad." That’s probably not going to be as effective as you’d like it to be.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, Diane, how do I stay calm if my kid won’t go to school?

Diane Dempster: That’s tough, right? And I just want to acknowledge that. It’s about knowing that, and I say this with all my heart, the world won’t end. It’s like, if you had a kid, and I’m trying to give a realistic example—let’s say your kid broke their hip and literally couldn’t get into school for six months—you would find a way to get them caught up or back on track. 

The issue arises, and I see this with many parents, when we start thinking, "If my kid doesn't make it through this semester and has to repeat a grade, they’re going to feel even worse about themselves because they'll be in a different class than their friends." We catastrophize, thinking it’s better for them to jump back in immediately, but it might actually be better to let things play out longer. We worry about what might happen if we don’t fix it right away.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. So I think what you’re saying, and what we talked about earlier, is that we want to invite parents, if your kids are dealing with these challenges, to find a way to get calm enough.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: To be able to be in a rational, calm place of problem-solving with your kid instead of being in that reactive panic mode that we tend to fall into, like, "But I’ve got to get you to..." If we’re so fiercely attached to a specific outcome, then we’re not problem-solving; we’re actually making the situation worse. 

So, we know, and I would say, maybe we won’t be happy about it, and we don’t expect this outcome, but we need to be calm enough.

Diane Dempster: Is that common? Now, I love that phrase "calm enough," because here’s what often happens, particularly if your coping mechanism is control, right? So, you’re freaking out, and then you’re like, “Dammit, you’re going to school!” And then you start taking everything away—phone, computer, everything—saying, “You’re not doing anything until you go to school.” I

’ve got to tell you, in cases where kids are like, “Fine, I’ll just lay on my bed all day, you can’t make me go to school,” right? If this turns into a power struggle, and you’ve got a kid who’s avoiding or trying to feel like they have more control over their life, adding more control to an already broken dynamic is probably not going to give you the result you want.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay, so if—step one is to stay calm enough. And there are lots of podcasts about this, and lots of work we do to help you manage your triggers and learn how to calm yourself down. If you need help with that, let us know. We’ll help you with that, right?

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So then it’s about, as you’re starting to point out, getting clear on where you are in the process with your kid. And what’s your kid thinking about this situation? Because what you think about it and what your agenda is… My question to you is, what do they think about it? And what’s their agenda? Because their agenda isn’t necessarily “don’t go to school.” 

Their agenda may be “keep myself calm by playing video games” because that’s calming for them. Or maybe they’re avoiding a social dynamic by staying home, or avoiding a difficult teacher by staying home. So, it’s important to get clear on that.

Diane Dempster: Let’s take it a step back and get really clear on where we are in the process, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay.

Diane Dempster: It’s kind of like this: we often think it’s just about getting my kid to school. They’re not going to school, so I have to get them to school. It seems like a simple, one-step process. But it’s really not that simple. You have to understand: do they even see it as a problem that they’re not going to school? Do they secretly know it’s a problem but don’t know how to fix it? Are they willing to talk about it? Are they interested in changing the situation? 

It’s really about understanding not just what their agenda is, but where they’re at in relation to going to school. I mean, yes, they’re not going to school, they’re refusing school, but get curious about what’s really going on underneath all of that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: I mean, at least, the mom I was talking about...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Thinking process.

Diane Dempster: She’s not going to school because she wants to avoid her statistics teacher, who’s just driving her crazy, putting too much pressure on her. She’d do anything to avoid that one class.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: You’re going to solve that problem very differently than if she’s feeling a huge amount of shame because she’s so far behind in her homework that she doesn’t think she can keep up. Or maybe she’s been out of school for four months and doesn’t know how to explain to her friends why she hasn’t been there. 

So, she doesn’t want to go back to school because she doesn’t want to have to talk about why she hasn’t been. I mean, there are so many different pieces. Knowing where you're at and what’s really going on for them underneath it all can be really helpful.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, the key here is to invite them to a conversation—or to multiple conversations—about what’s going on for them, not from a blaming or interrogating place, but from a place of: “Help me understand. 

I want to support you. I get that this is really hard for you. I can imagine this isn’t how you want things to be. Are you willing to have a conversation and help me understand what your thinking is and what’s going on for you as you wrestle with this?”

Diane Dempster: And they might say, “I don’t know.” Right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: They may not know, especially with younger kids, who might just feel like they don’t want to go to school, and that’s all they know.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. And when that happens, it’s a great opportunity to say, “I get that you don’t know. I can imagine it’s really confusing. Can we just talk about some different possibilities and see if any of these feel like they might be what you’re going through?” And we talk a lot about communication techniques, including “breadcrumbs.” 

So, when I say this, understand that this might not be just one conversation; it could be several conversations. But it might be, “Okay, think about it, and let’s come back and talk more later.” We want to avoid creating a pressure-cooker situation, but rather offer an opportunity for them to be thoughtful and share how they’re thinking and feeling. 

And they may not know for themselves, so it’s about approaching it from different angles, inviting them to think about how they feel, which is what we prefer.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, which is hard for them. And which takes us back to the first thing, which is we have to feel calm enough to let this take more than a day or a conversation or a week or whatever it is, right? It's a sort of it's got you've got to be able to be patient with this because it's this data was talking to yesterday we're talking about almost like a feral cat, right? 

It's this sort of you're trying to know I don't know if you've ever tried to find to feed a feral cat, but it's like, you walk close to them and they run away. And then it's like, you want to get a little closer, and you want to put a piece off a…

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: A little food.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. You drop some food and back away. Then, eventually, they start to trust you, but it takes time. It’s similar to trying to engage someone in this kind of conversation when they’re not ready to talk about it yet.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. And that means you're not trying to fix it, not trying to solve it, and not trying to get them back to school right away. You’re just trying to connect with them and understand what they’re going through.

Diane Dempster: And you’re focusing on the situation, not on getting them back to school. The moment you start offering solutions, which is a natural instinct for parents because we want to fix things, that’s where the problem can start.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, we start to shut down, and they’re done. Stay out of solution mode, stay in what we call curiosity mode. Really get curious about what's going on. And that doesn’t mean interrogating them—it means having open, transparent conversations, acknowledging that you understand and accept that it’s hard for them, and inviting them to share whatever they’re willing to about their experiences.

Diane Dempster: And be willing to recognize that it really is hard.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: I mean, if you’ve ever stopped doing something for a reason, and you had a really good justification in your head for why you stopped, then trying to get back into it is like trying to turn a clock backward. It’s not easy to do.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: No.

Diane Dempster: Sometimes it’s because you’ve dug your heels in so deeply, and it feels good to say, "I'm confident this was my decision." It’s like…

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: Changing our minds is sometimes even hard. So, going back to the process—where are you? Are you still in the stage where you’re just trying to get them talking about it? The second piece is getting their buy-in, getting them to believe that they can do something about it, that something can change, or that they’re willing to consider making a change, willing to consider that maybe there’s a safe way to go back and re-engage with school?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, what strikes me as you say that is that it goes back to that sense of agency. If we’re operating with the agenda that we need to get them back to school, and they haven’t yet decided, "I want to go back to school," or "I’d like to at least try going back to school," then you can try for buy-in all day long, but it won’t work because it’s not their agenda. Part of the opportunity here, we were just talking about this in a boot camp, is really understanding their agenda. You may not have the same one. 

For example, with little kids, your agenda might be to get them to go to school, while their agenda might be to earn a toy or a game or a privilege. As they get older, you want to reach a point where you’re collaborating and sharing the agency. You want to work together to help them return to school, rather than setting an expectation that makes them feel like they’re failing you. 

I think that's what we mean when we talk about buy-in, agency, and ownership: creating the sense that we’re working as a team to help them achieve their goals, because I know it’s really important to you for them to get an education too.

Diane Dempster: And well...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And what happens is they can say, "I don't care."

Diane Dempster: I hear the parents in the audience saying, "Elaine, they’re going to tell me, 'I don’t care.'"

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: "I don’t care."

Diane Dempster: "Go to school? I don’t want to go to school. Algebra is stupid. Why do I need to take algebra?" I mean...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s true.

Diane Dempster: All that sort of stuff about algebra. It’s true.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: They’re going to say that, well, algebra maybe, but you know...

Diane Dempster: Yeah. So, again, it’s this sort of thing, and it may not be as simple as saying, "But don’t you want a job when you grow up? Don’t you want this?" If we try to get them to think that way...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: And it just doesn’t work. It’s that trite idea of top-down versus bottom-up. Parents tend to approach things from the top-down: we know they have a problem, but they aren’t talking about it. So we try to address the problem through their head—logic, explaining, organizing, rationalizing, blah, blah, blah. 

The reality is, the kid is dealing with so much anxiety, stress, or whatever else, that we’re not even addressing what’s going on in their body. So, we need to approach it from the bottom-up: how do we help this kid calm down enough, have fun enough, relax enough? And then we end up saying, "Well, yeah, but he’s playing video games all day."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: To even be able to want to go back. Right?

Diane Dempster: Or even be willing to talk about it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: If you've got a kid who’s not talking about it, chances are it’s because they’re so stressed out that they’re not even able to discuss it. And remember, the video gaming or whatever else they’re doing—it’s not about fun. It’s about avoidance.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. They may be having fun in that avoidance, but the purpose isn’t, "I don’t care about the world, I just want to play video games." The purpose is, "I want to do something that feels manageable, something I can control and be in charge of."

Diane Dempster: It feels better.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. So, there’s something here about agency and ownership, and really inviting them to the dance, if you will. What’s important to you about your education? And it doesn’t have to be what everybody else is doing, but what do you want for yourself? 

It can take time to have these conversations, but the goal is to make them feel like you’re on their team, instead of feeling like you’re the one blowing the whistle, waiting for them to show up.

Diane Dempster: Well, what’s coming up for me as you say that is, I remember we did a podcast where we talked about the iceberg of independence, right? And at the bottom of the iceberg is...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Relationship.

Diane Dempster: Relationship and trust.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: And then communication. After that, we get to buy-in, motivation, and collaboration. These are the building blocks, and we want to start at the top—solving the problem and making the decision. But really, we need to go back to the bottom and build trust. Not just trust in themselves, but trust in you too. There are all these different moving pieces.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, really, what you're saying, and I love this, is that the bottom of that pyramid is relationship, then trust, and then communication and collaboration. All of that is what we’re talking about here—before we get to problem-solving, buy-in, and action, we need to reaffirm that relationship and their trust in us, so they know we’re on their team, working together with them to help them achieve something that’s important to them. 

Because if they feel like it’s just your agenda and you don’t care what they think or feel, they’re just going to push you away. It’s really easy not to take on your agenda. So, that shared piece of it becomes super, super important.

Diane Dempster: And that takes us back to compassion, where you understand that this is hard. It might not be easy for us because, in our minds, we think, "You should just go to school; it’s not that hard. What’s the problem?" But for them, on some level, it’s super hard.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It’s super hard. Yeah, really.

Diane Dempster: Super hard.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And here’s what’s coming up as we talk about this. I’m realizing how much we’ve discussed this in boot camp and in the communications class and in sanity school. This stuff is nuanced and complicated. It took you, however many years—6 years, 10 years, 15 years—to get to where you are. And it’s going to take a little time to calm things down and move forward in a different way. So, the reminder that’s coming up for me, for you as a parent dealing with school refusal and school resistance, is to take care of yourself.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And remember that the change you want for them starts with really thinking about you and how you're approaching it. Creating an environment that supports them in making a different choice and taking different actions than they’re taking right now. 

That change, to create that environment, starts with you—calming yourself down and shifting your communication patterns with them to create the outcomes you're really looking for.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, so this is hard stuff. It is hard stuff. I want to say that this is hard. My heart is with you. I wish there were an easy way to say, "Okay, if you do this, your kid will start going back to school again." And if you're in this situation and struggling, get support for yourself. 

Get help to work through this process. It’s not easy. It’s not straightforward. I mean, we’ve made it sound simple, and we’ve talked about it in, what, 24 minutes? It’s not.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It’s not that simple.

Diane Dempster: It’s not as simple.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And as we always say, whether it’s with us or somewhere else—if you don’t get help here, get help somewhere.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: But trying to figure this out alone... remember, the schools often have the agenda of getting the kid to school. So, the school has its own agenda. I’m not judging them for it, but someone has to be the voice for looking at what your kid’s agenda is. 

And actually, right now, that’s your role as the parent—to really get on their team and figure out what’s going on with them so you can support them in taking a different path forward.

Diane Dempster: And that, in and of itself, that whole thing where a kid knows that you've got their back and they really feel it—that changes everything.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, it does. I was talking to a mom who's in one of our training programs last night, in a certification program as a professional. She was saying she can’t really pinpoint what she’s doing differently, but the tone in the home has shifted. She can feel the difference and knows it’s related to what she’s doing differently, though she can’t pinpoint it yet. Right? 

So just know that your role in this dynamic really does have a significant impact. The more you can pay attention to it and learn how to communicate the way you really want to, the more you’ll start to shift that dynamic at home.

Diane Dempster: Awesome.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: All right.

Diane Dempster: Great conversation. Thanks!

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: You guys, this is hard. You can do this one step at a time. Focus on the process, not just the outcome, and trust that at some point, your kids do want what's best for them too. What they need from you is to help guide them toward that, instead of telling them what it should be.

Diane Dempster: Okay, thanks everybody.