Ryan Wexelblatt
We have to teach kids. It's okay to be angry. It's not okay to be mean. It's okay to be upset. It's not okay to be destructive, allowing kids to have whatever feelings they have. But that doesn't mean we need to start over-explaining things, over-empathizing with them, over-negotiating, or over-accommodating.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation in The Parenting with Impact podcast. My guest actually has a name known to many of you as the ADHD Dude. He actually has a real name. It's Ryan Wexelblatt, and I'm thrilled to have you here. Welcome, Ryan. 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Thank you so much for having me. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
It's fun to be in conversation with you always. Ryan and I have had lots of conversations over the years. We see each other at conferences, and we have a lot of complementary approaches to navigating complex kids and ADHD. And then we differ in a lot of areas. And I think what's interesting about us is we don't always agree. Right. But, you know, on the whole, I think we're, for the most part, I think we're in alignment. Yeah. So, let's dive in. Tell us a little bit about how you came to do the work that you do. How'd you come to become the ADHD Dude?

Ryan Wexelblatt
Yeah, so it was a little bit of an accident when I finished graduate school. I have my master's in social work. I went to work at a special education school for kids with behavior challenges, I think most of whom we would classify as complex kids. And I just kind of fell into it that way. So, I started working in special ed. I had my school social work certification and primarily worked in, you know, private special education schools throughout my school career. You know, I also had a private therapy practice as well, where I just focused on ADHD and what we used to call Asperger's. So, there was that piece, and then the summer camp actually that I just sold, and now the director's taking that over, as well. It’s called Trip Camp. So, it was just kind of a natural progression for my school career really. And then, you know, I think the other part was obviously I'm a parent to a definitely complex kid, or I'm sorry, I should say complex young adult. So that is really what made me kind of dive more into this, I would say. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, in your practice, I know your kids are older, but in your practice, you've typically focused on younger kids, elementary, middle, like what's your...? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
So, you know, in school, I primarily worked with middle schoolers for the most part. You know, a little bit elementary, a little bit high school, my private practice, I would say the age range was pretty much, you know, 11 to 15. That was the biggest group of kids who would come to my school year programs that I run, and then the campus middle school and high school. But I would say now with, with ADHD Dude, yeah, it's more elementary and middle school.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, okay. And what is it? What's your message to parents of kids with ADHD and related conditions? And let's stay focused on this audience of parents of kids in elementary and middle school.

Ryan Wexelblatt
Yeah, so I think my first message is that kids are not fragile. They are anti-fragile, and I think it's easy for parents to lose sight of that on a day-to-day basis when life is hectic. And I think there's also increasingly a lot of messages telling parents, no, they are fragile and treat them as fragile. Which I don't think is necessarily helpful. And I think my second message would be to, you know, look at this as a work in progress, and skill development is a work in progress that's going to involve three steps forward and two steps back. That's why they say ADHD is a condition of inconsistent performance. And I think that's important to keep in mind because I think it's easy to get discouraged. I mean, I know I certainly did when my son would have, you know, I don't want to call them setbacks, but would have incidents in school or whatever it is. So, yeah. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. That hit in the stomach that you get every time you see the phone, the number on the phone, or the email. I was saying to my son – so my kids are also young adults now – and I was saying to my son recently that the best part of him getting out of school is that I never have to hear from a school again. So lovely because I do remember, I almost at some point started having like almost a trauma response, you know, to that. So, let's take these two topics a little separately. Let's start with kids who are anti-fragile or kids who aren't as fragile as parents typically think. What do you mean by fragile?

Ryan Wexelblatt
Yeah. So, when I say fragile, I want parents to think of their kids as being resilient. So because, you know, they want something for, you know, you made something for dinner, and they want something different, that doesn't need, you need, that doesn't mean you need to accommodate them. Okay. And because you say to them, I'm not making something else. So you can have, you know, what I made, or you can have cereal. They're not going to be sitting in a therapist's office 20 years from now saying, you know, my mother was so horrible. She didn't, you know, make me chicken. Right. And I think that's the first thing. So to keep in mind, you know, they'll be okay. You know, kids are resilient, and we need to build resilience. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right. And those are kind of two different things, right? Part of it is starting with the assumption that they can be resilient. We have to believe that that's possible. And, you know, as I hear just that example of, you know, parents who are bending over backward to, you know, make sure because, because I'm afraid my kids not going to eat and he's on medication. And so if he doesn't eat, then he's going to get it, right? So that we become parents, I think, have this whole story in their head about what their responsibility is, and that can lead them to treat their kids as if they're less than capable, right? Right. So, kids are resilient, and they're capable. What's the parent's responsibility? How does a parent foster resilience? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Well, I think number one is remembering and having this mindset, a growth mindset, and remembering that they are not fragile. They are anti-fragile and know that, you know when one of the things I really focus on a lot is talking about family accommodation. Now, when I talk about accommodation, I don't mean, you know, accommodations and IEPs or 504 plans or those necessary kinds of accommodations. When I talk about accommodation, what I'm talking about is, you know, changes parents or family members make in their behavior to alleviate or avoid the child's temporary distress.

Ryan Wexelblatt
So for example, you know, the one I just gave about, you know, if they don't want what you're having for dinner and making, you know, something new, yeah, they might be upset with you for a little bit, you know, but they'll get over it. And, and I think that's kind of the point where it can, it's hard sometimes to see the forest through the trees, when kids are upset with parents, or they're saying, you know, you don't care about me or, you know. You don't care about my feelings and so on. So, I think it's just keeping the bigger picture in mind. And one of the things that I really believe in emphasizing to people is that you know, I believe that we want to help kids reach their full potential. And in order to do that, we have to help them develop resilience and develop, you know, grit or, you know, a growth mindset, you know, in order to do that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So it sounds like, you know, as I'm hearing what you're saying, like, to me, I don't see the two things as incongruous, right? You can foster resilience in a growth mindset and still make appropriate accommodations, and not inappropriate accommodations, right? So making a special dinner might be an inappropriate accommodation unless that kid's got serious food issues. Right. But what would be an appropriate accommodation for parents when kids have delays? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
So let me say it this way. You know, a mom said to me, she said, the more flexible I became, the more inflexible my son became. And that was a really good example for me of you know, what family accommodation, the one that unhelpful accommodations can look like. So, let me give some examples. So, you know, allowing the child to sleep in your bed because they, you know, get scared about sleeping in their own bed, dropping, you know, your other child off first, which is, you know, out of your way because your child wants to, you know, finish playing a game on their iPad. Right. Accommodating their inflexibility in any way, those types of things. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Okay. So, we talk a lot at Impact about what we call flexible structure. So, and the notion is that you want to have a structure in place. And that sometimes you need a little flexibility, but that doesn't mean, again, to bend over backward to your point. That doesn't mean you go out of your way if one kid needs it, right? But there is something about accommodating the emotional intensity of these kids without, without, I don't even know what the word is, without enabling. So, does that come up for you in this framework or..?

Ryan Wexelblatt
Of course, yeah. So I think, you know, I don't really think about, you know, when I talk the emotional part, you know, I think of it as that kids can, you know, express themselves however they want, as long as it's not, you know, hurting anybody else or it's disruptive to the whole home and so on are causing stress for everybody else. And, you know, one of the things I teach parents, I say, you know, we have to teach kids it's okay to be angry. It's not okay to be mean. It's okay to be upset. It's not okay to be destructive. You know, things like that. So, so in, you know, allowing kids to have whatever feelings they have, but that doesn't mean we need to, you know, start over explaining things or over empathizing with them or over negotiating or over accommodating.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right. Yeah. Where our job isn't to make them happy. Right. Our job is to raise kids who can be able to flow with what's happening in the world because things change. And a lot of kids with ADHD struggle with transitions and with things changes. How do you speak to that? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Yeah. So I have a saying: I say, flexibility is cultivated, and inflexibility is accommodated. So what that means is that we have to, again, teach kids to be, you know, teach them about flexibility. So for things like transitions, you know, one of the things I talk about is doing a lot of front-loading about what the transition will visually look like. Helping kids understand that, you know, we might have a plan for something on a Saturday, but that plan might have to change, you know, where things might not work out how we want, or, you know, it might start raining, and we can't go to, you know, wherever it was you wanted to park or wherever you want it to go to. So, just the idea that if we can prepare kids that life has a lot of unexpected moments in it. And we kinda, you know, we have to learn to roll with the punches. And again, however, you feel it is fine. Okay. But that doesn't mean you get to behave however you want based on your feelings. Yeah. Yeah. Go ahead. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, what just came up as I'm hearing you say that one of the things I've grown to talk about a lot with parents is the value of acknowledgment that you can acknowledge how a child is feeling to recognize that that feeling for them is real without enabling or accommodating or giving in or, right? You can recognize that it must feel really frustrating for you, scary for you, upsetting for you, fill in the blank, and still say, “Here's what we're having for dinner.”

Ryan Wexelblatt
Right. And I would go so far as to say that's a necessity to do that to acknowledge that. Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, agreed. If you really don't know how to handle a troubling behavior, chances are the first step is to acknowledge whatever is going on for them. Right. Because it's real for them. That doesn't mean that they can be rude or disrespectful or anything else. But whatever they're dealing with, there's a reason for that behavior. There's something real behind it for them. And recognizing that it's legit, not going into that, “Oh, don't feel that way, honey.” 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Right. Or start playing what I call armchair therapist, where we start, you know, analyzing it and spending too much time focusing on the feeling ‘cuz one of the things, you know, I teach parents to teach kids is that all feelings are temporary. We're not happy forever. We're not sad forever. We're not mad forever, you know, and feelings come and go like everything else. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. All feelings are temporary. All of that. 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Feelings are temporary. There you go.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. So, let's take a quick break, and then we're going to come back and talk about skill development.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Welcome back, everybody. My guest is the ADHD Dude, otherwise known as Ryan Wexelblatt, and we had a great conversation about kids being anti-fragile. Love that language and the importance of fostering resilience and cultivating a growth mindset. And we're going to shift it. You had said there were two key messages. One was for parents, one was that, and the other was that skill development is a work in progress. So, let's talk about that a little bit.

Ryan Wexelblatt
So, you know, one thing I say is that skills don't develop in a timeframe that's convenient for you. I imagine you guys get a lot of people reaching out in June at the end of school. And you know, suddenly it's okay, we're ready to do all this, and that's okay. You know, I always say better late than never. And you always have to start somewhere, but, you know, it's, it can be really hard when people have chaotic lives. They're trying to manage, you know, multiple demands with work and kids and their own mental health issues and taking care of aging parents and all these things, you know, to kind of keep this in perspective that, yeah, the skill development doesn't necessarily happen over the summer when it's convenient for us. So, that doesn't mean we need to make this a full-time job, but there are little things we can be doing throughout the day to help cultivate independence, independent problem-solving skills, and executive function skills. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Okay. Like what? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
So, let's talk about, I guess, the morning, for example. One of the things that I teach is, you know, how do we help kids move from prompt dependence, meaning go get your shoes, get your jacket, don't forget your lunch, to independence. So, you know, being able to...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I want to stop you just because of your accent; I know I had a hard time. You're saying the difference from prompt dependence, that is people responding to the prompt of go do this, go do this. We would call it director mode, but. Okay. And then into what was the other term? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
So, when I talk about prompt dependence, I'm thinking about it more from the kids’ angle. So prompt dependence means they're not going to do these, you know, daily routines necessarily without being prompted from director mode, I would say. Right. So, I talk about shifting from prompt dependence to independence. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Okay, so where would a list fall? Like, let's say you've got a kid, and at their place at the table at breakfast, there's a list of the things they're supposed to do. How does that fit into that framework? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Okay, you can cut this out if necessary, but I don't use lists.   

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I don't need to use either, but some people do.

Ryan Wexelblatt
Yeah. So I don't teach fair to make lists for one, but you know, one of the things we can do is think about number one, you know, what is it that they can be doing independently that they're not doing right now? And it may be a little more than you think. Well, so we have to start somewhere. So that's why I think starting, you know, with the morning routine or an evening or after school routine is always a good place because what we have to do in order to move from prompt dependence towards independence, we need to put scaffolding in place. So for me, what that looks like, for instance, is making a visual timeline in the morning. So a poster showing the child doing these different, you know, steps in the sequence of their morning routine. So instead of saying to them, get your shoes on and get your jacket, it's, “Go check the timeline,” or “Where are you on the timeline?”

Ryan Wexelblatt
Because if they can go see for themselves what the next step is, then that's helping to reduce prompt dependence. And the other part is, you know, shifting the way we use language with this to help build their nonverbal working memory or what I refer to as future thinking skills.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
How is a timeline not just a linear list?

Ryan Wexelblatt
Well, it's a visual list. Yeah, it is. Okay. So there's a difference between seeing yourself doing the actual tasks versus seeing just words on paper, but it is. It's a visual sequence. Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, I mean, I'm just remembering back to when my kids were little, and I wasn't going to create it if they weren't part of creating it, and there had to be a visual attached to it. Right. Like, yeah. And so there's a piece here that's about, I love what you said, which is what can they do more independently? Right, and it's identifying, and I'm guessing that you would agree that you kind of want to choose one thing and then the next thing, that you don't want to do a whole bunch of things at one time. In our world, we talk about it as taking aim but choosing the next thing and then the next thing, one thing at a time that they can do. What's the kid's role in deciding what that next thing is? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
So I think there are two parts to this. One, what I often suggest to people is start with whatever time of day is most stressful at home for you. Because if we can make some headway there, you know, and make, you know, mornings a little less stressful. Well then, maybe if the kid feels like, okay, you know, my mom or dad isn't nagging me constantly every morning, and mornings are a little more pleasant now. Then they're going to hopefully take more ownership over this and feel like, Oh, okay. I like this, you know, and then letting them kind of take ownership of what they want to work on next and giving them a few different options. So whether that's, you know, afternoon routine or bedtime routine or, you know, helping with chores around the house, I'm really big on, on kids feeling useful at home, and, you know, contributing to the home. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, yeah. So a couple of things came up as I was hearing you say that one is, you know, starting with the most stressful time of day and still, even in that, tackling one thing at a time. So, it might take a while to improve learnings. It's not going to happen with one little tweak, clarifying that for anybody who's like. Right. It can take months, right? It can take a lot of time. But the whole game is that you're scaffolding some things while they're beginning to improve skills and others. And it's the dance of the two. Right. So, let's bring in inconsistent performance in this conversation. Okay? Yeah. It's one of the things you said earlier was that skill development is a work in progress and their performance is inconsistent.

Ryan Wexelblatt
Right. Do you want me to give, like, an example of that? 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, so how do you deal with this if your kid's making progress, and then all of a sudden, they were getting themselves out of bed, and now they're not, or whatever, fill in the blank. 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Right. So, I think one thing is just to, you know, accept that for what it is, and just kind of try to look at it without any judgment. You know about it or, looking at it as some kind of failure on your part or, you know, definitely not a failure on the child's part because, again, this is what ADHD is. So the question is, okay, how do we get back on track and move forward? And that might take time as well, you know, that might not be a day that might be, you know, a few weeks to get back on track, particularly, you know, after like a school break or, you know, during, you know, summer vacation or whenever. So I just want people to have the expectation that that is going to happen, you know, and whether that's with executive functioning, whether that's with behavior, whether that's social, it's going to happen across the board. You know, whatever. Yeah. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And it's reasonable to expect it. And I think part of what happens often that I've seen is that parents will come up with some solutions, some strategies, something they're going to try, and they expect it to work right the first time. Right. And they expect it to keep working. And it kind of doesn't work like that. It's more like herding cats than that. Right. So we have to be flexible. So that goes back to us and our role as parents. Right. Cool. Okay, Ryan, what have we talked about that you want to highlight? Or what have we not talked about that you want to make sure to include?

Ryan Wexelblatt
I'd like to talk about social skills a little bit because that's, you know, my favorite topic. And I'm really, you know, to my knowledge, I'm one of the only people out there who kind of focuses on social skills for boys. You know, and the way I'll just tell you real quick, how I got into that was working at a school that was primarily for kids –the school was basically half kids with autism and half kids with behavior challenges. You know, I started realizing that a lot of the kids who are getting help for social skills, they weren't learning how to be relatable to their same-age peers. What they were learning, and forgive me for saying it this way, they were learning to communicate like a middle-aged woman. Okay. Well, because all the staff at the school, for the most part, is female in the speech-language pathologist, you know, God bless him, running these social skills groups, you know, or whatever it was in school.

They were, you know, they were really teaching kind of the gold, what they felt was a gold standard of male behavior, which is lovely. If you want to teach boys to be gentlemen, which I'm fully in support of, but saying, you know, to your 13-year-old peer, may I join you, or what are your hobbies? That doesn't go over so well.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
No, I can imagine it doesn't, and the beautiful thing about kids on the spectrum is that they're gonna model whatever you teach them. So if you give them that, that's what they're gonna bring out. Okay. 

Ryan Wexelblatt
So, one of the things I do is I offer school year programs. So then, my middle school program, it started off, it was called How to Hang Out. And now, I just call it A Guy's Group. And, what we really do in the groups, I should backtrack a little bit and mention, you know, what the research data show are that social skills groups are not effective for ADHD. And if anybody wants to see that research, they can go to effectivechildtherapy.org and type in ADHD. It's number five there in terms of what doesn't work, tested, and doesn't work. So, one of the things that I really focus on is, you know, what I call social executive function skills. So, those executive function skills we use when we're sharing space with others. And really what I focus on is the things that, you know, that don't always come naturally to kids with ADHD.

So for instance, you know, reaching out to your friends or who you want to be friends with when you're not with them, because for a lot of kids with ADHD, they're socially motivated. They like being with other kids, but it's out of sight, out of mind when they're not with them, right? Because they live in the moment. So that's the kind of things I focus on and, you know, learning how to be flexible for being part of a peer group, showing interest in others, you know, by not having one-sided conversations where you're talking at them. Those kinds of things. So Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Yeah. No, it makes perfect sense. Like, one of my kids really struggled with, with, being a good sport and being able to hear the word no, or not winning or right? Those are the kinds of dynamics that he needed to practice. Yeah, being okay with losing. We're hearing now or whatever. Great.

Ryan Wexelblatt
For that very reason, I started an elementary school program called How To Do Recess, where we test-typed games to work on sportsmanship and work on, you know, cognitive flexibility in play and yeah, and that kind of thing. Love it. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, it's awesome. Perfect. Perfect. All right, anything else? I think that's it. Beautiful. Yeah. Thank you. Thank you. I appreciate the kind of structure of the conversation very much. It's super helpful. Thank you for what you're doing. I appreciate it. It's a powerful community out there, and there's a lot of need, and the specific ability to really address that need, particularly for younger boys, is really important. So, thank you. Thank you. Oh, one more question. Yes. I knew I was going to almost forget, but I didn't forget. Do you have a favorite quote or motto you want to share? 

Ryan Wexelblatt
Yeah, I would say, and I think this is really relevant, you know, more recently, is the old African proverb that, “It takes a village to raise a child” because I think the fact that a lot of kids are not seeing grandparents or extended family, or even family friends on a regular basis or, you know, cousins, this is the way we develop skills, both social executive function skills naturally is through this unstructured play and hanging out. And I do think that kids need the experience of being held accountable by other people besides their parents. So, yeah, so I'm a really big believer in that. I do think it takes a village to raise a child, whatever that village looks like for you. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, I was really, really lucky raising my kids that I had this very intentional community, and they were in and out of each other's homes. Everybody was aunt and uncle, and it made a big difference to know that I wasn't the only one saying you couldn't talk to him like that, you know? Yes. So it's very powerful. Super. All right. Thank you, my friend. Thank you. To those of you listening, take a minute and ask yourself, what's your insight from this conversation? What's your one A-ha or takeaway? What's the gem that you want to bring forward with you into your week? And as always, thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids. At the end of the day, you make an enormous difference. Take care, everyone.