Diane Dempster: Hey, everybody, and welcome to a special episode of Parenting with Impact. You'll notice Elaine didn't say "welcome"—she's usually the one who says it all the time. I'm Diane, and I get to say "welcome" today because Elaine is going to be on the hot seat. 

Wait, should we say that? No, Elaine is the guest today, along with Tracy Lafave, one of our coaches. We're going to talk a bit about gender and neurodiversity, and all sorts of cool topics—identity, sexual identity, and more. So, Elaine, do you want to kick things off and share what the topic is?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I think you’ve covered it. We want to talk about kids with gender diversity, sexual identity differences, and neurodiversity, and the interplay between them. Many of us are raising kids with gender diversity or differences in gender or sexual identity, and it’s become really clear to Diane and me, and within our community over the past year, how much more this has surfaced in recent years. 

In fact, it’s become so apparent that we started a new online community for parents raising kids with gender and/or sexual identity differences, or gender and/or queer kids with neurodiversity. Right?

So, there’s this growing awareness happening—our kids are becoming more aware of their identities, as their generation embraces their differences in ways that we didn’t. This is a conversation we, as parents, are having, and many of us didn’t even know it was a conversation just a couple of years ago.

Tracy and I both have transgender kids, and I also have a child with a different sexual identity. We wanted to have a frank conversation about all of this. 

So, that’s where we are, and I’m really looking forward to it because there’s so much to unpack. Tracy, why don’t you share a brief version of your story, and then I’ll share mine, and we’ll see what we have to say about it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, thanks, Tracy. So, I have two children. One is transgender, and the other identifies as pan. So, we’re kind of on both sides of the queer community. It’s been a journey of discovery and supporting them, and I see it as being rooted in building that relationship and having open conversations to explore alongside them. 

As a parent, that’s what I’m doing—exploring this community. Like you said, just a couple of years ago, I didn’t understand any of the terminology that I do today.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And just for clarification, how old are your kids now, and how old were they when they started to identify differently?

Tracy Lefebvre: Yep, so my youngest is 15, and he started—

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I'll clarify—he was assigned female at birth.

Tracy Lefebvre: Yes, he was assigned female at birth. I would say it was around 11, so it was really the beginning of middle school when he started identifying differently. My oldest is 19, and she was probably around 15 when she began having these conversations as well.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And for me, I’m the mom of three kids who identify in different ways. My oldest is now 27 and identifies as trans non-binary. Looking back, I can say that the signs were there all along, but we didn’t know it at the time. They were assigned female at birth and first started identifying as gay in their early teens, officially coming out in their late teens. There was a series of “coming out” moments over the years. 

By the time they finally came out as trans non-binary, they did it on Twitter, and I picked up the phone to call and ask, "Is there something you want to tell me?" They said, "Didn't we already have that conversation?" I said, "No, sweetheart, we didn’t." Then they responded, "Well, for the record, we had it in my head, and it went really well."

That’s my oldest. My middle child goes by the pronouns she/they because something about the plural feminine pronoun doesn’t quite fit for her. But she identifies as a woman and is gay—good old-fashioned gay, right?

And then my youngest... I’m not going to remember the exact moment, but he recently said something to me about it. He’s not gender-conforming, meaning he has long hair, paints his nails, but he was assigned male at birth and identifies as male, using he/him pronouns. But he doesn’t fit the typical gender norms you might expect. That’s the word I was looking for.

Tracy Lefebvre: What bubbled up for me, too, and I think is an important part of the story that I forgot to mention, is that with my youngest, who’s a trans male, we probably knew all along. But because of my age and background, we didn’t initially think about it that way. 

He first came out as trans non-binary, and through his journey, he discovered that he is actually trans male. We had always considered the gay community part of his identity, which you mentioned, but not the gender identity, trans aspect of it along the way.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. So, just to be clear about what we’re talking about, because I think it’s funny—we’ve both gotten so comfortable with this language that we forget we’re speaking a new language to most people. There are essentially two areas of identity. One has to do with gender, which, as my eldest describes it, is what’s happening in your head. 

It’s how you see yourself, your self-concept. Do you feel right in your body? Does the genitalia of your body match what you think of yourself as? And then there’s sexuality, which, as they say, is “Who do you want to be under the sheets with?”

Diane Dempster: It's more about who you’re attracted to, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, exactly. If you're asexual, it’s less about attraction and more about self-awareness. So, gender is about self-awareness, whereas sexuality has to do with attraction.

Another point I want to make here, just to simplify it, is that the term "queer" has been reclaimed by this generation. It now covers the entire spectrum of what we're talking about when we refer to kids with gender or sexual identity differences. Many kids today identify as queer, and it’s a positive, affirming term for them. For those of us raised in a different generation who may have heard that term used as slang or a slur, it’s no longer the case. It’s now viewed as a positive, affirming label that this generation has reclaimed for themselves.

Diane Dempster: Well, and I know we may want to talk about the intersection between this and complex neurodiverse kids. But I also want to start there, with both of you as parents. There’s this journey that I know you both went through, and I’m guessing that because you’re both coaches, being coaches probably helped you approach things in a different way. 

But talk a little bit about that. Tracy, you alluded to it—the communication and the conversations. As parents, did you have some of those "oh, holy crap" moments? And how did you... I’m sure you did, but talk about those moments. Because, you know, we’re all coaches, and people might assume we have it all figured out.

Tracy Lefebvre: Right, and that’s a great point. So, my youngest has ADHD, and I used to lovingly joke when he was small that he put the “H” in ADHD with all his impulsiveness and energy. When things first came to light—though, unfortunately, it wasn’t really his doing—there was a misstep at school in how they kind of outed him.

And that created a moment of uncertainty. I wondered, "Is this impulsiveness? Is this just a trend he’s picking up from TV?" So, there was definitely that element of confusion. That’s where the coaching tools really came in because I got curious. 

I asked, "What is this about? Are you trying to fit in? Is this because, as a neurodivergent kid, you don’t have a lot of friends and are trying to connect with others? Or is this really about you and your internal sense of self?" We had to do a lot of explaining and, you know, a lot of conversations.

I’d say that, because he didn’t really know himself yet, he was afraid of how he would be received. So there was defensiveness when I’d ask what I thought were just curious questions. We had to work through that together.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I totally hear what you’re saying. My kids are more than 10 years older than yours, so there was a whole different generational dynamic at play. I remember the wildest thing—my eldest is 27, and my youngest is 20. His best friend, who was assigned female at birth, was raised alongside him. This kid grew up in my house, and I kept saying, "They remind me so much of my eldest, Becks."

When that kid started coming out and wanting to transition in their early teen years, at first, I thought, "Wait, this is just like Becks—it’s the same thing." Then it hit me: "Wait a minute—maybe this is what we missed with Becks." Because this kid, eight years later, was able to express things that didn’t even exist in our minds when Becks was that age.

I’m not proud of it, but when Becks first started coming out at 13 or so, they wanted to come out as gay. The school counselor and I, along with others, said, "Okay, if you feel that way, maybe you shouldn’t announce it to the whole class." Not my most shining parenting moment, by any stretch. We kind of suppressed it because, in those days, we were afraid of social suicide. Five years later, it wouldn’t have been the same concern, but at the time, we were so clearly worried.

Diane Dempster: Well, and I think that’s part of it. I mean, we’ve seen changes even in things like the DSM-5, right? At some point—I don’t know whether it was eight years ago or longer—but there was this idea that you couldn’t officially declare yourself gay until you were a certain age. That’s just how it used to work. And now we know better. I mean, yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I don’t even know about that. For us, it wasn’t about age or technicalities—it was just about whether they came out to their class or not. At the time, they had a crush on a friend, and we were worried that coming out might ruin the friendship. Ironically, it did end up ruining the friendship, but that was a whole other issue.

Tracy Lefebvre: That really resonates with me, because you do have that fear, right? The fear of "Are they going to get bullied? Are they going to be safe?" And, honestly, that fear came from my own experiences growing up. Back then, you kept it hidden—you didn’t come out. 

I had to work through my own mindset, my own catastrophizing about what could happen. It’s this fear of how the world will respond.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly, right? As a parent, you’re so afraid your kid is going to get hurt, and that life is going to be so hard for them. You think, "Do you really need to make life harder for yourself than it’s already going to be as a kid with ADHD?" Exactly.

And yet, I was talking to one of our clients in the UK who has a kid with ADHD and has been really, really struggling. 

Recently, the kid came out as trans. What the mom said was so fascinating—she’s actually receiving more support and understanding from her friends and community regarding her child’s gender diversity than she ever did about the ADHD. 

There’s still so much judgment around ADHD, right? Because with ADHD, people see it as misbehavior, which makes them think you’re a bad parent.

Diane Dempster: Yep, yeah, and yet still. So, let’s talk a little bit about neurodiversity. What is it that makes it different? I’m guessing that sometimes a neurodiverse kid, because of their impulsivity, might be like, "Okay, this is me! I’m out here—deal with it," in a very direct way. 

I’m picturing Elaine’s kids, because I know them. But what are some of the other things you’ve noticed about neurodiverse kids that might make their experiences different from those of other gender-diverse kids?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I don’t know that it’s necessarily different, Diane. I think you’re onto something, though. That really hits it. When my family did a presentation for the International Conference on ADHD about these issues, I was the one who had to go and do the research—because, of course, my kids already knew this stuff, and I had to catch up.

One of the things I learned is that there’s a higher prevalence of ADHD and autism among kids with gender identity and sexuality differences. I don’t know if it’s causal or if there’s another type of correlation, but my gut feeling is this: kids with ADHD may have a harder time suppressing these things. 

It’s just harder for them to inhibit or hold back. If you have a condition that makes it harder to suppress anything, it’s going to apply to this as well.

Tracy Lefebvre: I would 100% agree with that. On our journey—not just in coming out but also through the medical transition—there was this impatience, like, "Why can’t I just go by this name and do this or that? Why is there a process? 

I don’t understand why everyone can’t just accept it." So that became part of the conversation too: explaining that we had to follow legal steps, go through processes, and that these things take time.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly, it does take time. And when you’ve got a preteen or teenager, you also want to make sure they’re not just going through a stage. There’s this balancing act of wanting to support them and meet them where they are, but also thinking, "What if next week or next month they change their mind?"

Now, for me, that’s not something I experienced directly with my own kids as much as I’ve seen it in the parents I support. Tracy, how did you navigate that? Because you were working with kids in that age range.

Tracy Lefebvre: Yeah, we navigated on our own for a while, but eventually, we agreed to work with a wonderful trans therapist to help us have these conversations in a safe space. For us, the turning point came when the psychologist told us something so powerful. He said, "This isn’t fleeting. I talk to kids all the time, and this is real. All the dots align here."

He went on to say something that really stuck with me: "In my professional opinion, you could wait and keep assessing. But as someone who didn’t transition until after high school—because of the times and my parents—I can tell you this: if you support the journey now, you’ll get to see your son become a man and be part of that journey during his adolescence. Otherwise, one day, this man just shows up at your door."

That was the moment it clicked for me, and I thought, Okay, I get it now.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, yeah. It’s so interesting because I remember saying something similar to the parents of my son’s friend, but I don’t think I fully understood it then—not the way I do now after hearing what you just said. There’s something very powerful about wanting to be with our kids, whoever they are.

You know, our experience was a little different, partly because my child is nonbinary and partly because we’re older. But what I will say is that when they came out as nonbinary, when they had top surgery, when they did the things that helped them feel better in their body—it wasn’t that the gender dysphoria completely disappeared. I think there’s still some body dysmorphia or dysphoria that lingers, and I hope that goes away someday.

But there was this noticeable shift in their whole way of being in the world. They became more positive, more self-accepting. Looking back, I wish I had been able to help them get there sooner, because once that huge weight started to lift, so many other things lifted along with it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, yeah. It’s so interesting because I remember saying something similar to the parents of my son’s friend, but I don’t think I fully understood it then—not the way I do now after hearing what you just said. There’s something very powerful about wanting to be with our kids, whoever they are.

You know, our experience was a little different, partly because my child is nonbinary and partly because we’re older. But what I will say is that when they came out as nonbinary, when they had top surgery, when they did the things that helped them feel better in their body—it wasn’t that the gender dysphoria completely disappeared. 

I think there’s still some body dysmorphia or dysphoria that lingers, and I hope that goes away someday.

But there was this noticeable shift in their whole way of being in the world. They became more positive, more self-accepting. Looking back, I wish I had been able to help them get there sooner, because once that huge weight started to lift, so many other things lifted along with it.

Tracy Lefebvre: Well, for me, my biggest priority is to get parent support so that you can process things. I'm a verbal processor, so I really enjoy working with coaches and others who can help me think out loud. 

Like you mentioned, there are different stages, right? Some of it is grief, some of it is transition, and some of it is about honoring the child. 

For example, how do you navigate Christmas ornaments that have the family’s name with the dead name on them? Or, you know, in our case, how are you going to...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Or deal with the entire photograph album of their childhood?

Tracy Lefebvre: Right? You know, there are things like that because you want to honor who they are now. And that's where we came together with my son. We were able to have these conversations, like, "Look, you’re still my baby, and I don’t want those pictures destroyed." 

You've decided to embrace this shift, and I want to honor that. It’s not about you deciding to be somebody else, but about embracing who you are. But I think for parents, it’s important to have a safe space to process your own emotions. 

Like you said, Diane, and it was perfect—they’ve already had the time to have that inner dialogue with themselves. Now, you’re there, and you want to show up for them, but you also have to go through your own process too. So it comes back to self-care and support on your own journey, in a safe space.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes to everything you just said—yes, yes, yes, yes. And what came up as you were telling that metaphor, Diane, or that story, is that we say to parents all the time: you’ve been thinking about something for a long time, and you want to have this conversation with your kid. You can’t just spring it on them because they haven’t been thinking about it for weeks. You have to give them space to process it. And this is just the reverse of that. 

As a parent, I needed space to figure it out and process it, but I was being called upon to respond to it immediately and publicly. Right? And that was hard. But that’s fine—it's my issue. One of the things I’ll say is that when I say "all," I mean all my kids. They were like, “Well, that’s your stuff; you go deal with your stuff, because you can’t interfere with my stuff.”

And partly that was because my kid was an adult, but also, it’s like, I have to deal with my stuff, and they have to deal with theirs. I want to support them in their stuff, but I also want them to respect that I have my stuff to deal with too, right? The hardest part was that it was hard for them to respect that because they wanted me to just shift. 

But what BEX did really well at the beginning was, when I got the pronouns wrong, they would correct me without making it a big deal. And when I got it right, they would thank me. That was really helpful—it helped to acknowledge that, like, constructing some of these conversations with your kid is really important. 

And as Tracy was saying, get the support of a gender-affirming therapist, someone who’s working with the family. Get the support of a gender-affirming coach, who’s supporting you or your family. We’ve been doing that way more this year than we ever expected. But I love what you’re saying: make sure you have someone to help you navigate constructive conversations with your kids. 

These can be really hard conversations, and sometimes it really helps to have someone else either navigating the conversation with you or giving you tools to have a healthier conversation with your kid.

Diane Dempster: Well, not only that, but your kids are going to be in different places as well. Maybe your kid didn’t need you to help them process what was going on with them, but some of our kids do. 

Some of our kids need us to be able to shift and not just say, "Mom, I’m really struggling with this," and then be told, "Don’t deal with your own stuff. 

Be here for me." We need to be able to be present for them in a very different way. Tracy, you said it so beautifully—approaching it with curiosity and just being present for them.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And you still have to deal with it. Even if it’s not until midnight. Like, yeah, you have to deal with your stuff too. Because the best advice I got—I did this interview with Linda Rockley at the beginning of this year, 2021. 

We’re filming and taping this in 2021. Someone wrote in with a lot of feedback, telling me some of the good things we did and some of the bad things we did. But the best advice they gave was: if I can go back and remember my child as they instead of she and then transition. For me, I realized that every memory I had, I had to translate from she to they. 

When I started trying to remember them as they, it made it so much easier for me. And you guys can’t see it, but those of you who are listening, Tracy’s nodding like crazy, right? So it was similar for you?

Tracy Lefebvre: Yeah, and that was actually when I kind of got frustrated with myself because I realized we had made the transition, it had been a while, and we were doing great. But then I hit what I called my "mental glitch." It was when I would pull from the past, and then, when I looked to the future, I’d mess it up. 

Luckily, my son and I had had that conversation, and I’d say, "You know, it’s just kind of a reminder for me." It wasn’t intentional, but it really was when I would reference the past. 

So, to your point, once I really worked on the translation, it shifted things for me. But yeah, memories are the hardest part of the whole process, in my opinion.

Diane Dempster: And just to put a plug in— the cool thing about that is we can do that, right? We can go back and rewrite our memories. 

Since they’re our memories, we can go back and rewrite them in a way that helps us be more respectful of where our kids are now or at least make them less impactful—like, surprising them with a new perspective.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: But then you’ve got to do the work. Because when you go back and rewrite the memories, there’s grief, loss, fear, and all this other stuff that comes with it. 

I used to have two girls and a boy, and now I have a boy, a girl, and Bex. You know, that changes my entire history as a mom. Right? And that’s okay. I’ve got that work to do.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, yeah. So, we’ve got a little bit of time left, but I’d love to hear from you guys— is there anything we haven’t shared that you want to make sure parents are hearing about? We could do an entire episode on this, there are so many things. But, you know...

Diane Dempster: Just a parting thought from each of you—maybe that one nugget you want parents to remember.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I think what I would say is, when we have kids, we have no idea who they’re going to become. We often have a really strong vision of who we want them to become, or we think we know who they’re going to be, or we paint this picture of what we think their future could have been. But that’s just our imagination. 

So as parents, if we can kind of appreciate that vision, frame it, and then put it aside, we can start paying attention to who they are becoming, rather than who we thought they would become. 

That way, we can help them paint a picture for themselves. Because what’s really important is the vision they create for their own life. They’re the ones who get to live it. So that’s the key.

Tracy Lefebvre: Yeah, and it’s perfect, because what bubbles up for me all the time is a stoic quote, which I modify a little bit for the times: No person enters the same river twice. And it’s not because the river is flowing—it’s because the person is not the same person. 

You know, that’s the thing. I’m still my children’s mom, but I’m not the same mom I was 19 years ago. And they’re not the same kids they were. It’s a journey we’re on together.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. So, if we can do anything, it’s to help them paint the picture and vision of their own future. Because really, ideally, we want to be part of their future. And the way to be part of their future is to support them in creating that future.

Diane Dempster: Love that. Thank you, Elaine. Thank you, Tracy. What a great, great conversation this has been. And thanks to all of you who are listening for everything you're doing for your kids and for yourself. At the end of the day, it makes all the difference.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Just a reminder, in the show notes, we’ve created a new Facebook group for parents of gender and/or queer kids with neurodiversity. We’re not going to give you the link here, but it’s in the show notes. If you’d like to join, we are screening it very tightly to ensure it’s a safe community for everyone who joins. You will not be admitted unless you answer the questions and provide the necessary information for access.

If you’re raising kids with gender and/or queer issues and neurodiversity, we strongly encourage you to join us in that community. It’s been a really beautiful, robust conversation— a very diverse community—and it’s a great place to get support for yourself. Thanks, everybody.