Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation on the Parenting with Impact podcast. You've got Diane and Elaine here today, talking about a topic that's at the top of our list of things we deal with in families all the time, right?

Diane Dempster: Yeah. I got like three questions on this in one week, and I was like, "Okay, if we don't already have a podcast episode on this, we absolutely need one." It's been a busy month. 

This episode is going live in the middle of July 2023, and we've been fully immersed in ADHD Parents' Palooza land. I think it's going live right after the episode does.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Let me say that differently: we’re recording this in mid-July, but it’s going live on July 26, right before Palooza. We’ve been doing some of the pre-recording for Palooza. 

So, if you haven’t signed up for this summer’s ADHD Parents’ Palooza, join us! There are amazing conversations, and we can attest to that because we’ve already had some of them. How did I do with that?

Diane Dempster: And if it's a year from now and you're listening to this episode, go find the ADHD Parents' Palooza, wherever we are in the world right now.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. It's such a great event that we do every summer. We'll include a direct link in the show notes. Or Diane, they can go to which website?

Diane Dempster: ADHDpalooza.com and click on the "Parents" link at the top of the page.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, so join us for Palooza this summer and every summer. It's an amazing event. But that's not what we're here for today.

Diane Dempster: What are we talking about? We haven't even told them. We just said it’s going to be important.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, we’re talking about drama, right?

Diane Dempster: Right. Let’s set the stage. Parents come to us all the time and say, "My spouse and my kid are always fighting," or "My kid and their sibling are always fighting," or—

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: "I'm always fighting with my kid, and it's driving my spouse crazy."

Diane Dempster: So, there’s some dynamic at play, and fighting isn’t always like active fighting. It’s more about conflict between two people, and then there’s a third person who’s involved or impacted in some way. 

Oftentimes, I’m going to stereotype here, but it’s like one parent is saying, "Okay, my kid and my spouse have got to stop fighting. It's making me crazy, and I have to do something about it." 

And they’ve been trying to do something about it, trying to navigate and work through it, but it’s not working successfully. And there’s a reason for that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And the other thing that happens in that dynamic is that oftentimes, you’ll have one parent interacting one way and another parent trying to compensate for that. 

So, you’ve got the strict parent, and then you’ve got the more permissive parent. The more permissive parent is trying to go easy because there’s this strict counterbalance. So sometimes it’s not my natural tendency, but I’m reacting or responding to the other dynamic.

Diane Dempster: I think you used both words—reacting versus responding. A lot of times, it’s hard for us to be in the midst of conflict. It’s like we’re sitting there, and there may be active arguing and things like that. 

And it’s hard not to do something because, for many of us, active conflict dysregulates us. So, we’re either fighting or fleeing. We’re either trying to jump in and fix it, or we’re trying to run away and get out of there. 

And we can’t, because we’re co-parenting or whatever the situation is. But there’s the biology and natural tendencies of how we respond in conflict, and then there’s the question of what do we do when it’s really not our conflict?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, bottom line: how do we be in relationship with other people who are in relationship with each other, without imposing ourselves in the middle of it or feeling like we need to fix it, control it, or be the peacemaker? 

And that's not to say there's no role for peacemakers in family dynamics, but I think you and I have talked about this a lot. Part of our job as parents is to support our kids in being in relationship with their other parent or parents. Whether we're still co-parenting actively, whether we’re still partnered or not, it doesn’t matter. 

The point is that our job is to be in relationship with our kids and to support them in their relationships in their lives. And sometimes, that means helping them learn to be in relationship with another parent who may be difficult for them.

Diane Dempster: So, the model I introduce is called the Drama Triangle—specifically, Karpman’s Drama Triangle. But what I think about is, we’ve got a relationship. Let’s use the example we were talking about earlier, where a co-parent and a kid are in conflict with one another.

I have a relationship with my co-parent, and I have a relationship with my kid. And the two of them have a relationship with each other, and it creates a triangle if we close the triangle. So, if I’m just staying over here trying to be in relationship with my kid and help them navigate life, including life with a co-parent they’re having a hard time with, that’s the side of the triangle. 

If I’m over here, helping my co-parent navigate their relationship with their child without trying to get in the middle of it, but just being there and saying, "Okay, you’re having a hard time, let me be here with you."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Then you’re in a V.

Diane Dempster: But now I’m in a V, and that’s good. The minute it closes, I think about the third rail on the subway—it’s like you don’t want to close the triangle. Karpman’s model suggests that when the triangle is closed, someone becomes the villain, someone becomes the victim, and someone becomes the rescuer. 

And often, that dynamic will shift within the triangle. But if I’m over here trying to get them to make peace with each other... I mean, it’s the same thing when your kids are fighting. It’s like, I’m over here trying to get them to like each other or trying to get them to stop fighting. 

Instead of being in relationship with each of them independently, I’ve closed off the triangle, and that’s where the drama happens.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s where some of the drama happens; the escalation happens. I’m reminded of a book I read a thousand years ago called The Dance of Anger, which was very similar. It had this notion of a triangle, so it’s very much what you’re talking about. 

And I think what we want to talk about here today is how do we prevent triangulation and stay in relationship, staying in support of both of these people we love, without creating escalated drama that we don’t really need. Fair?

Diane Dempster: I think one of the core pieces of that is understanding what your job is. What is your job when other humans are in conflict—whether it's your kid, your co-parent, your friends, or whoever? What is your job, and what is not your job? 

Obviously, there are safety issues, and if your kids are fighting, you might physically put yourself in between them to see what you can do to separate them. What I would say is that you want to do that from a place of neutrality rather than from a place of accusation. I remember this really distinctly. 

My kids are about 19 months apart. If they’re listening, I promise not to tell on either one of you! But what I would always do is say, "You guys are fighting," not, "You’re picking on your sister," or, "You’re doing this to your brother."

I tried really hard not to take sides, but just to observe that there was fighting and arguing going on. My goal was to stop the fighting and arguing without taking sides and getting in the middle of it, because I needed to be able to support them both in the midst of that conflict. 

So, even if you do need to insert yourself, you want to do it from a place of neutrality rather than from a place of, "Okay, I’m going to get my husband to behave better so they stop fighting with my son," or whatever it is. It’s that sort of thing.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Let’s talk about neutrality, because I think when we’ve got complex kids, very often, it feels like the world is against them. And so sometimes, we become rescuers, saviors, advocates. 

But sometimes, when we’re advocating, we kind of go overboard with it because, again, we’re balancing the rest of the world. And so we don’t stay neutral because it doesn’t feel fair. We’re actually feeling like, "It’s not fair what you're doing to this person."

Diane Dempster: I think there’s a distinction between neutrality and compassion. The tool I like to call people to most in this situation is compassion. It’s this idea that I can have compassion for both sides of the triangle. If these two people are fighting with each other, I can say, "Wow, I can tell you’re really angry with your sister. 

And it makes sense that you would be angry with your sister because this is the way you’re seeing the situation." I can also say, "Wow, I can tell you’re really angry with your brother. And it makes perfect sense that you would be angry with your brother because this is how you see this situation." 

So I can be with them independently and say, "I get it. I see you. I see your side of this, and I love and support you as a human." And that’s different from saying, "You’re right and she’s wrong." That’s the distinction. That’s the neutrality.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And I guess what I’m saying, Diane, is that sometimes, as parents—and I know I’ve been in this role—I have to remind myself to stay neutral because I do have a tendency to defend the underdog. 

And it feels like you're being a bully, and that’s not fair. I have that tendency, and I know I’m not alone. I think what would be fun, if you’re open to it, is that you and I both coached around this multiple times just this week. 

So let’s pull two or three examples and talk through them. I’ve got one in mind. Do you want to start, or do you want me to start?

Diane Dempster: No, go ahead. You do it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay. I’ve got one. A couple with one child, a 19-year-old only child. The mom has been doing a lot of work with the coach approach, and the dad is not quite as caught up in it but is catching up. 

The dad is really, really well-intended, but there’s a disparity. The kid comes home from college for the summer, and there are some other deeper issues about what happens when 19-year-olds go off to college, come home woke and aware of the world, and start blaming their parents for everything. The mom is feeling really trying to be present to this kid and support her or meet her where she is, and the dad is feeling hurt, offended, and judged. 

He’s having a harder time because he’s kind of feeling like the odd man out. So, the coaching conversation was really around meeting each of them where they are, which is what you were talking about earlier.

Diane Dempster: The sides of the triangle.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Two sides of the triangle, and being able to support the spouse in feeling hurt, feeling left out, and feeling like it’s not fair what this kid is accusing him of. He’s only been trying to love and be an intentionally great dad. 

And right now, he’s got a 19-year-old kid who’s carrying a flag and a banner, fighting against all the evils of the world. The dad kind of represents that to this kid. At the same time, being able to meet the kid and say, “I want to support you in what you’re doing, and I want to invite you to do it respectfully because this person loves you.” 

So, it’s about supporting each of them where they are without taking sides and saying, “Yes, it’s okay,” or “No, it’s not.” But being able to continue to invite the respectful acknowledgment of each other. Now, again, we’re talking about an older kid here. I’m not talking about a nine-year-old. What comes up?

Diane Dempster: I think that even the judgment—the heart in that is right. Mom wants the kid to be invited to show more respect. Even that could be interpreted as mom getting in the middle. And then, all of a sudden, it’s villain vs. victim. "Okay, I’m the bad guy because I’m not being respectful to dad. 

Mom’s taking sides with dad." I’m highlighting even something as simple as that. So we’ve got to be really cautious in how the person’s going to see our language. We want to be supportive. But if they hear it as you’re taking sides, yes—and the other piece of this is when somebody is dysregulated. 

I mean, we’re talking about active conflict here. They may not see your heart in it. Even if you’re well-meaning, they may just think, “You’re taking sides. You’re with them. Sorry, you’re in the bad camp,” and all of a sudden, the Drama Triangle is closed.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. So that’s the risk—the thing that could happen that would close the triangle. In this case, though, that’s not what’s happening. What’s happening is the mom is actually doing a pretty damn good job of staying out of it and supporting each of them, and also building the relationship with the child so they can have those conversations about, "How are you showing up, and is this how you want to show up?" She’s being supportive in the process. But again, language matters a lot.

Diane Dempster: Language matters, and the tool that’s coming up that we teach all the time is ACE. You start with acknowledging, compassion—acknowledge, compassion—so you’re just acknowledging what’s going on for a moment. And then there’s a pause, giving them space to clear, regulate, and do whatever they need to do. Then it’s an E. 

What’s often for me is "explore," which is asking, "What do you want to do about it?" I can tell you’re really upset about this. What do you want to do about it? Is there something I can support you with around this? 

You should just tell dad, but unfortunately, I can’t do that. However, I can help you figure out how you want to handle this situation. If you want to handle it differently, I can offer some ideas on what you might do differently. But I can’t do it because this is your relationship.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And that’s the key. We’re able to say to our kids, “I get that right now you might be having a hard time in your relationship with your ex, dad, sibling, teacher, whatever, and I get that that’s really hard.” 

There’s that acknowledgment with compassion, which you were talking about as part of ACE. "If you feel like there’s something you want to do about it, if you’d like to problem-solve around it, let me know, and I’m happy to support you in that." 

But notice how all of that language, that ACE that Diane is bringing in, it’s all about keeping it focused on their relationship with this other person, not bringing yourself into it. "Well, what are we going to do about it?" It’s not about me. This is about you.

Diane Dempster: And it may be scaffolding because I’m thinking about parents of young kids. You brought up the idea with a teacher, so I’m imagining a kid who’s having a hard time with a teacher. 

It might be intimidating for a kid to actually have to be the one to talk to the teacher. There are ways for you to step in and help. It might be, “Would you like me to go with you and stand with you while you talk to the teacher?”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Would you like me to help you write an email?

Diane Dempster: Would you like me to help you write a letter or email? It’s sort of, “Would you like me to sit and introduce the conversation?” You’re doing everything other than putting yourself in the middle of it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Because this is about their ownership, and about them seeing it as their responsibility, their relationship, and their opportunity to problem-solve or not, as they choose?

Diane Dempster: And you may end up saying, “Would you like me to advocate for you?” There may be places where that happens.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: But that’s still their ownership.

Diane Dempster: Their ownership of it. And I think that’s the piece of it you want to be really careful about—trying to be objective and not close the triangle. You want to support and help your kid when they’re dealing with another adult, but if it’s hard for them to deal with, you have to be mindful of your role.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. All right, got another example?

Diane Dempster: No. I was just going to go back to the siblings because, actually, the one I coached this week was the same sort of thing—one parent and a kid who don’t get along.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I’ve got another one with a younger kid, if you want to use that, and there’s a sibling involved.

Diane Dempster: Okay, go ahead.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay. So, there’s a family conflict with two young kids under the age of 11, two parents, and an upset in the summer where one kid didn’t make it through camp, which we know can happen in this community sometimes. 

So, you’ve got a really upset, dysregulated kid and a neurotypical sibling trying to get in there and protect the upset child. Now, the sibling is the one saying, “But he’s so upset.” 

You’ve got one parent who’s handling it in a grounded way, and another parent who’s really worried, so there’s a dysregulation there. So now you’ve got more than just a triangle.

Diane Dempster: So, everybody’s dysregulated. Job number one is finding a way to be the grown-up.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Two are dysregulated, and two are not, in this scenario.

Diane Dempster: And I think that’s the key—self-checking. This is where I was just on a call with a couple, and it was like, okay, wait, a huge part of this is self-management, so I don’t end up falling into the pit with whoever’s dysregulated. 

So, it’s about figuring out how to support each of the players in this. Create a line to each of the players, so it’s not quite a triangle because there are four of them. You want to figure out how to get the other person out of the triangle, because if they’re in the middle of it, it’s just sort of…

I know you’re here to help your sibling, but can we talk about how to best support your sibling, instead of you trying to get in the middle, defend them, or take action? Let’s figure out what our role is in this, kind of thing. But again, it’s about focusing on the path—how can I help you?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: One path.

Diane Dempster: This path, how can I help you?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Visually, for those of you who are listening, one path, then the next path, and then the next path. You’re like spokes in the wheel to all these different relationships.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. And so it’s not quite a triangle. I don’t even know what shape it is.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Whatever.

Diane Dempster: Whatever shape it is, but it’s really about being in a relationship with each of them as individuals and avoiding becoming the thing that tries to patch the relationship. And it’s this sort of thing where you don’t want anybody to become the villain, the victim, or the rescuer. 

Ultimately, underneath this, Elaine, I don’t think we’ve said this yet, part of what we’re trying to do is help our kids figure out how to be in healthy, effective relationships when there’s conflict. It’s not just about fixing the fight that’s going on right now. 

It’s about helping them understand that we’re going to experience conflict throughout our lives. We don’t want to be in the business of fixing conflict for our kids all their lives. We want to help our kids develop conflict management skills. There’s a difference between ending a fight and figuring out how to manage conflict.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And you know what? I love this part of the conversation because conflict management is something that many adults struggle with—whether in work, family dynamics, or various friendships and relationship issues.

If we have a tendency to avoid conflict, it interferes with our ability to maintain relationships, because conflicts arise in almost every relationship at some level.

Diane Dempster: Actually, we’ve done two other episodes on conflict and the underlying causes of conflict. So, let’s make sure we link to those in the show notes. If you haven’t listened to them yet, go back and give them a listen, or re-listen if you’ve already heard them. All of this is interconnected when it comes to conflict.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. So, are there any other strategies you tend to use when you’re coaching on this topic that you think would be helpful? You've mentioned ACE. I often use the "design" approach. That’s where I usually leave off—asking, “What do you want to design?” I’ll link to Relationships by Design—I know we have a podcast on that. 

The design approach is essentially about how you ask for something in a way that diffuses defensiveness and prevents people from becoming reactive.

Diane Dempster: And another tool is self-management. This is especially important if you have an adult in your family who’s acting like a bully, which can often happen. I do a lot of coaching with individuals who are divorced. 

They come back from spending time with their dad or mom, and they’ve been emotionally beaten down, and it’s tough for them. It’s hard not to want to jump into “mama bear” or “papa bear” rescuer mode, but ultimately, our kids need to figure out how to navigate relationships with that other person, unless they’re not safe. 

And I want to emphasize that if they’re not safe, then that’s a completely different conversation. Also, our definitions of what’s “safe” often vary.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What’s coming up for me as you say that is that sometimes it feels like kids are being bullied, but other times it’s not that. Sometimes it’s about having another parent who’s irresponsible—one who isn’t following through on agreements, not holding themselves accountable, being inconsistent with medication or routines, or not ensuring the kid gets enough sleep. There are many things that can go wrong in those situations.

Diane Dempster: So many of our kids are so savvy. They’ll notice things like, “Mom’s being a hypocrite because she tells me I have to do this, but she never does it.” It’s all that sort of stuff that happens.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, for sure. So, as we wrap up this conversation, the bottom line here is that our job as parents is to support our kids on their journey of learning how to manage themselves. Part of learning to manage themselves is learning how to be in relationships.

Diane Dempster: Even when they’re hard.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right, all kinds of relationships, even when they’re difficult. Especially when there’s that dance between conflict and love, because what we’re talking about in family dynamics is that kids want to love and be in relationship with their parents and siblings. They really want that.

Diane Dempster: Even if they don’t say it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. And when it’s hard, that can add another layer of confusion—maybe they think they’re messing it up, or that they don’t know how to do it, or maybe they feel like they’re not lovable. 

So, helping them learn how to be in difficult relationships is actually helping them realize that they are lovable and that they have the capacity to form relationships, even when they’re challenging.

Diane Dempster: And the thing I would leave us with is the word “trust.” I was talking to a mom the other day, and she was so desperate for her kids to get along. She has a great relationship with one of her adult siblings, and she loves them so much, and they have such a great time together. 

She’s terrified that her kids are either going to end up on their own or hate each other for the rest of their lives and not have a relationship. So, trust your kids’ journey, trust your kids’ relationships. 

It’s hard to look at difficult relationships and think, “Okay, maybe this relationship will figure itself out at some point,” or maybe this is exactly what this kid needs—being in a difficult relationship so they can experience a different kind of relationship later in life. The word “trust” is so hard, but try to find something to lean into. 

There’s a bigger picture happening here that you can hold onto, something that might make it easier for you, because sometimes, it’s not easy.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, and what that brings up for me is a whole other topic—maybe it’s another episode—about not catastrophizing, not being overly attached to the outcome, and being present to where they are in the relationship right now. 

It’s about not fearing where they’ll be in six months or six years, and instead, being able to be present in the moment, where things are right now.

Diane Dempster: Kids [inaudible] all the time.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Being present in the moment and knowing that drama is a part of family life. But just because there’s drama doesn’t mean we have to freak out about it. 

We can just be present with it and think, “Hmm, isn’t it interesting that this triggered them?” and take it from there. Alright, is there anything else you want to add?

Diane Dempster: No, this has been great. I love this conversation.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Always, always, and forever. I love all conversations with you, even when there’s conflict. And just so you know, sometimes there is conflict.

Diane Dempster: With us? Never. Alright, thanks everyone for listening. Thanks for everything you’re doing for yourself and your kids. At the end of the day, you make a difference.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And remember, Palooza is coming up next week. Join us. See you there!