Caitlin Garman
First, thanks so much for having me on. I love having these kinds of conversations as well. I've got a long history working with kids and families in schools and out in the community. I started my career as a teacher—I think there's value in everyone starting a career, at some point, in a classroom in front of kids—teaching 3rd grade. I found out pretty quickly that I loved working with kids and families and did not love teaching multiplication; it turns out that part's trickier. So, I went back and got my master's in social work and then moved into school social work, spending about 10 years here in D.C. as a school social worker and transition coordinator at a large D.C. public high school. I did a ton of work supporting kids in high school—such a pivotal age. You're getting ready to transition into adulthood; you're coming into your own—and really supporting families in figuring out, "Where do I land with my kid here?" At such an interesting age, a lot of parents tend to pull back.

You need to. Your kid needs some independence, but also, for our kids who are neurodiverse or who have other challenges, they often still need you there as that base level of support. I did a lot with families, figuring out, "What's my role here as my child is getting more independent, and how do I help them figure out where they want to go, who they want to be?" Through that work I ended up over at BroadFutures. Thank you for that intro. As you said, we run an internship program for neurodivergent young people. We place them in paid internships in Washington, D.C.; we provide mentoring and career training; we really try to equip them with the skills they'll need to move into the professional world after they leave high school.

Elaine Taylor‑Klaus
Right. There are a lot of directions we could go with this conversation. I want to start with before they get to you—before they get to whatever the resource is after high school, whether it's college and then an internship, or an internship or mentorship before college, or no college, or whatever. There are those late‑teen years that parents, as you so well put, need help navigating. We work a lot with parents of teens and parents of young adults in our community. What do you feel parents of early young adults, before they get to these spaces, really need to understand better?

Caitlin Garman
The biggest thing that helps is understanding—and this is especially true for what you call "more complex kiddos," kids who might have anxiety, ADHD, are autistic, or are neurodivergent in some other way—that there are many different paths available to kids when they're transitioning into adulthood, and all of them are viable options. I'm a parent myself; I know parenting is hard. You second‑guess yourself or feel like you've failed your kid. When your kid gets to high‑school age and you're thinking about their next step, it's hard not to get lured into that traditional path: after high school they'll go to a four‑year college, do some internships, then independently start their own family. That's sort of a traditional path. It's hard to see that there are many other options—but there are.

We serve all kinds of students. Some take a traditional gap year after high school, spending a year domestically or internationally doing different work before they head to college. Some try college and find it's not the right place and need a reset. Some won't try college, and that's fine; sitting in a classroom is never going to be for them, but they're still bright, motivated, and can have wonderful careers and lives.
So I think one thing it's really important to think about for parents as their children reach that transition age: explore all the options—even if they aren't what you had in mind, the path you took, or the path your best friend's kid is taking. It's OK. As long as you expose your kid to these options and help them figure out who they want to be and what they want to do, they can take a different path. It doesn't have to be the traditional path.

Elaine Taylor‑Klaus
So here's what comes up for me as I hear you say that: even before you get to a point of introducing an alternative approach—the next step—there are conscious conversations parents need to have, because you're starting with the assumption that the relationship is strong enough for parents to introduce their kids to many options, which may not be true.

Be the case. So, I want go back to, before you talk about what happens out there, what's the conversations that you'd like to see that you think parents would do well to be aware of that need to happen before you get to these conversations. What's the conversation before the planning conversation or the option?

Caitlin Garman
Yeah, that's a good point. Part of it is balancing letting go while still being a support and really just building that supportive relationship with your child. Say, "OK, I'm going to listen. We'll have time where you tell me what's going on with your day—what you're enjoying about school, what you're thinking." We don't have to make a plan; I'm not going to tell you what I think you should do. Just listen to your kid and be that open vessel.

Ask yourself, What am I hearing that my kid is really enjoying? Maybe throughout high school, during dinner conversations, they're excited about math and science classes. In the back of my mind, as a parent, I might think, STEM could be a direction; maybe some college classes. But don't jump in with a plan right away: "Have we thought about this or that?" Catalog the information and be a supportive presence while gathering options.

Then, when you sit down for a planning conversation, you aren't starting from scratch. You can say, "I've heard you talk about how you love writing. So, I'm wondering if we should think about what are some careers that use writing? Is that something you'd like to do in the future?
Elaine Taylor‑Klaus
I really appreciate what I hear you saying, and I see two different directions. First, you talked about letting go and transferring ownership, and I want to pin that for a minute. Second, I heard you encouraging parents to stay curious—listening and understanding what's going on and what their kids' interests are, listening for the interest underneath.

In our community, we see many parents who demonize technology—All they do is play video games.—So maybe seize the chance to get curious about what they enjoy about those screens and what fascinates them. You talk about active listening, and I would add: get curious about what's happening for them, what they care about, and what excites them.

The other point I heard is to help kids identify their strengths. They may not know them—very often, our kids take for granted what they do well and focus only on what they don't do well. Talk a little bit about how to identifying strengths.

Caitlin Garman
That's such a good point. We do a lot of work on that in our program—talking about both strengths and accommodations—so a kid, or a young adult, really understands both. Your point about strengths is so true. We always ask about them in our interview, and sometimes it's like pulling teeth. We'll be looking at a young person's résumé and transcript and think, "Oh my gosh, strengths are jumping off the page at me, yet it's tough to get a kid to recognize," "I'm really good at diving deep into something, getting detail‑oriented, and finishing a project to its limit, or I'm good at following up, asking when I'm unclear, and advocating when I don't know the answer."

One thing parents can do is reflect those strengths back to their child as they notice them, so the child internalizes, Oh yeah, I am good at asking questions or I'm really good at working on a team—look at these group projects, or I'm on a sports team or in a video‑game league and have to coordinate with other people; I really am good at working with others.

On the flip side, it's important to understand accommodations. If I have anxiety, ADHD, autism—whatever it is—what accommodations have been helpful? What things helped me succeed in high school that I can take with me to college or the workplace? Is it extra time, frequent check‑ins, or breaking tasks into concrete due dates? Those considerations are really helpful when you sit down to think, What's my next step after high school? Things get a whole lot less prescribed once you leave high school.

Elaine Taylor‑Klaus
Right. So, circling back to strengths for a minute—before we even talk accommodations—what I heard you say is: reflect back to kids the strengths you see. That means you must identify those underlying strengths, because we're so good at noticing what isn't done. They need us to say, ''Wow, you were kind to your friend just then,' or 'That was a really nice thing to say to your sibling.'' We've said it since they were little: Catch 'em being good. Now, we're talking about holding up a mirror to help them see their gifts and natural talents.
Caitlin Garman
Absolutely. I'm a parent of toddlers, and there's a lot of narrating behavior:" Oh, Thanks, you did a great job waiting." We praise the behaviors we want to see. It's similar with our older kids—narrating, "Wow. You did an awesome job drafting that paper five different times; I know it was laborious, but it was awesome to see you dig in."

Elaine Taylor‑Klaus
So, I love what you just said because I often say that we tend to be really good with this transferring o of ownership with toddlers, and then somehow they go to elementary school, and we lose it. Yeah. We start directing again. Teachers start directing again. They stop taking ownership. It's really funny how we're better at it when they're 3 and 4 than we are when they're like 13 and 14. Yeah. So there's something to be said for kind of recognizing what's available to them and beginning to encourage them, to trust them more, to take on more ownership and so that we can get a sense of what they care about, right?

Caitlin Garman
Yes. And it's OK as a parent to let your kid go out there and fail a little bit. And that is perhaps the scariest piece, right? Especially as they get into adolescence. There are so many ways that can go wrong, but when we're thinking about post-secondary transition, them figuring out what they want to do, who they want to be, it's OK if they get a job and end up getting fired from that summer job because they weren't showing up on time, or they weren't following through with their tasks. Because that's a really good learning experience for them. That's going to teach them about maybe that environment was way too fast-paced for me. Or maybe I need something that's a lot more structured, or maybe that environment was so boring I need to be in customer service and something that's fast-paced. All those experiences can be learning experiences, and it's OK as long as you're that sort of soft landing piece. It's OK for them to go out there and fail a little bit because you can help them reframe that as OK, that stunk that that was not a fun experience.

Let's regroup. Let's think about what we can take from that. It was really hard for you to be working at the cash register at McDonald's because that was going super, super fast. So let's knock that kind of fast-paced work off the list right now, and let's experiment with something that's maybe more in an office or where you have time to work independently. That's just given us information about what you're good at, what you like to do, and what kind of environment feels good to you. So framing some of those experiences, those who are shifting the independence back, framing some of those, what we might see as failures as like, nope, we've just learned something about you, and that's OK. It's OK if you got fired. If you "failed." Now we're learning from it, and we're going to move forward.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
In coaching, we call it failing forward, and I'll make sure in the show notes about it. My guest is Caitlin Garman, and she's with broadfutures.org. We are talking about prepping young people for the next stages after high school or beyond high school and college. And so we've talked a lot about the role of the parent, the importance of getting curious, being a good listener, being present, letting your kids know that you're there for them, beginning to kind of let go and transfer ownership. So we've had a lot of conversations about the role of the parent, right? So let's assume that we've built some strong connections, we've built some good relationship. If you are not yet at a point where you feel like you're safe with your kid having these conversations, that's OK. The place to focus is to start by building the connection and building the relationship and, you know, we can help you with that.

So once you feel like you've got that, now you want to talk about moving into the conversations to help your kids begin to see what's available, right? Yeah. And you mentioned a lot of things. There are things that you do, things that other organizations do. If we can pull back, not just from what BroadFutures does, but what are the options available for kids who may not be traditional kids or the traditional path of straight from high school to college may not be a great fit. What do you see as their options?

Caitlin Garman
Yeah, I think taking a gap year is a tremendous option. It's something that's really, we're an accredited gap year association, so I go to a lot of the gap year association meetings. I'm kind of moving around in that community a bit. It's really a wonderful opportunity for kids who need a break from school to take a pause, get some hands-on real-world experience. They can develop independent living skills. They can work on that, you know, socialization piece of like, "OK, I'm going to be part of this group, be part of this team." They could come to an organization like ours and get some professional work experience, right? There's all different places you can go in taking a gap year, but it can be a really nice way where your child is still building the skills that they need to be a successful adult.

All those executive functioning skills, the independent living skills. They're not in a structured classroom, which might have been a really difficult space for them for the past 12-plus years. So, I think a gap year right out of high school is great. I also think there are options that we're seeing a lot more in the gap year community where folks are taking gap years throughout their college experience. Some folks are going to take some classes in college for a semester or a year, then take a break, come do some gap year programming, and then go back. So this idea that you don't have to complete college in four years, but maybe it's, "Let me dip my toe in the water, take a few classes, maybe I'm living at home and taking them at someplace local.

Then I'm doing a gap year experience, and then by then, I'm a little bit older. I've had a lot of experiences, and I might have a clearer view of, "Oh, I'm really interested in government and policy, so I am going to go be a political science major, but maybe I didn't know that when I was 17 years old." Or, "I've really done a lot of work out in the community and I would love to ultimately work with people in service of others." So, I'm going to look into some of these human services fields and decide and figure out what degrees I ultimately need to get to be able to go into that field. Right? So with a little bit of experience and more time you might have a better thought of what you want to do, which actually we find a lot of kids after they've taken their gap year are better at, they go back into school, and they're like, "OK, I know what I want to do now. This is serving a purpose for me." So they're sort of better able to get through the slog of what can sometimes be school.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So what, and what you're speaking to specifically are structured gap experiences, right? You're talking about a tailored, structured, supported experience. And I know some people are like, I'm not going to let my kid take a gap year if it's not an experience like that. Some people feel like it's an expense that they may not be able to afford. What else is available?

Caitlin Garman
That's a good question. All of your points about structured gap years are certainly true. It's always good to look at all of the different school options, whether that's trade school, getting a certification, or going to a local school and living at home to balance some of those costs. We also see some folks who take a gap year in an unstructured way, who may be living at home for a year, working at a job, and just kind of getting their feet as an independent adult. And I think, you know, parents sometimes really balk at that idea. Like, "Oh, my kid should be on their own, or they should be in college." But if that's where they need to be, if they need a break from school but they're earning money, they're practicing some of those independent adult skills. That can sometimes be a good pause for them too. And then maybe you have an agreement.

OK, in six months' time, let's come back to the table and let's talk about, alright, what's your next move? If this job is going well, is this a long-term thing? Should we think about what this looks like? Or is this OK? I've learned some things. I've taken the break from school and now I'm ready to go ahead and apply to school and sort of get back in it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, there are so many steps in the process as I'm listening to you talk. I'm remembering a semester one of my kids took off of school. It was in the middle of COVID, and a group of them went and lived in a city together. My joke about that semester was he learned how to get a job. He didn't do a particularly good job working any of the jobs, but he got a bunch of them. That was a really essential life skill set that he acquired—how to go through the process of positioning yourself, selling yourself, putting together resumes, and applying. That for our kids can be a really powerful exercise.

Caitlin Garman
Absolutely. That like hands-on experience.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, there's the unstructured gap year, there's structured gap year before school, during school, sometimes after school. And one of my kids did it after college, applying to ongoing graduate education. There's an unstructured gap year, and what I'm hearing you say with that is you really do want to make sure that you have some clear expectations in advance of that, that there are some agreements. Not just you're going to hang out and play video games all day, but we have some agreements going into it about what the expectations are, how you're contributing to the family, whatever. Now, I know you also have some experience with mentorship and internship. So, let's talk a little bit about those options and whether they are for younger kids or more for kids in their twenties. Let's talk about that a little bit.

Caitlin Garman
Yeah, so we work with folks 18 to 26, so right in that kind of post high school all the way through. We work with folks who are in college, not in college, all the way to graduated. We find that internships are really a phenomenal way to practice some of these both executive functioning and kind of career readiness skills in a hands-on way. Right? So you are in an internship experience, you are reporting to a boss, but you are practicing like I have to get up early enough every day to be able to catch the bus to get to my job, right? I have to plan out my meals for that day. OK, I'm going to be at work during lunchtime. Am I going to bring my lunch? Am I going to run out? Do I have time to run out? Like all of these little skills that it takes to be a full functioning adult. You're getting to practice in an internship program and you're also getting that career piece of like, OK, I'm going to do an internship and something and figure out if I actually like doing this job.

'Cause some kids will think, right? Like, oh, I really want to work in PR advertising. I just love, I love social media. I want to go into that. And they find out like, "Oh man, it's a lot of typing. It's a lot of sitting at a computer and creating stuff, and like, No, I want to be, I actually didn't like that." I actually like the part where I get to be in front of people. So maybe they've learned about themselves that they're a little bit more of a customer service people person than a communications person. Right? And it can teach them a little bit about where they want to go in a future career. So I think the internship work experience in general is, I mean, preaching to the choir here is massively important for young people, especially young people with disabilities. It's just a huge bonus for them. And then the mentoring piece, we do mentoring in our program. Lots of other programs have mentoring as well, but really our mentoring is meant to just be like a sounding board for folks, right? You're at work and you're just not sure how to solve a problem.

OK? Talk it over with your mentor or you're feeling stuck, like, I don't know if I'm doing a good job at all. OK? Let's talk about how you can have a conversation with your manager to get some feedback, or you feel like you need an accommodation that you're not getting. All right, let's role play. I'll pretend to be your manager. You ask for the accommodation. I'll give you feedback on how you're asking for that. So it can be a nice way to have someone who's not a parent, because to your point, right, sometimes those relationships are super fraught. You've been with your kid for a really long time. They might be sick of listening to you, and that's OK, but it's just another person to come in. We use a peer mentoring model where our mentors are a bit younger and so it's nice they, our interns really can look up to these folks like, OK, you're not an ancient dinosaur like my mom. Right? You're not a hundred years old and you've recently been through this kind of piece of life, so I kind of trust what you're saying here when you're telling me, oh no, you know, you actually need to show up on time to work.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Super Caitlin, this is so helpful. Is there anything else that we haven't talked about that's an other option for these kids? You know, I think this was a, maybe for some of them, I guess going to work for a while. Yeah, for sure. Just going work may, it may for some of our kids years later before they figure out they want a degree or certification or something.

Caitlin Garman
Yes. And that's part of the reason we work with folks, you know, all the way up to age 26. 'Cause sometimes we do have folks who are 23, 24, 25 who are like, OK, I've figured it out now. OK. I think I have an idea of what I want to do, so I want this internship experience and I think that kind of ties up our conversation perfectly. Parenting is really hard. It is OK if your kid takes this kind of zigzag path and takes a while to get there. Like you are their supportive base and every path does not have to look the same. So, you know, give yourself some grace as a parent. That your child's path does not have to look like yours did or like everyone else on your block did. There's so many options that it's OK if your kid zigs a little and zags a little and then comes back to center. It's OK.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Absolutely. I love it. Love it. OK, so here's how you can find out more about Caitlin. And, and the work that happens at broadfutures.org, you can reach Caitlin on her LinkedIn page. All of this is going to be in the show notes. Lots of great resources there. Really good organization, and a lot of other resources on their page as well. And then we'll put some other resources in the show notes as well for other organizations we know who are serving this age population. Yeah. So Caitlin, is there something you want to bring in, or is there something we have talked about that you want to highlight? Like how do you want to wrap up your piece of this conversation?

Caitlin Garman
I think, yeah, I think just that of what we said, you know, your job as a parent is incredibly difficult. And a lot of times it is pulling yourself back and saying, I'm going to be curious. I'm going to listen. I'm going to focus on this relationship, and in my mind I could be making a million different plans, but I'm really going to be present with my kid and listen and help reflect back to them, OK, what are my child's strengths? Like, what do I see for them in the future? And really give over some of that independence and allow your child to really take that information from you fail a little bit, but you're just that supportive base for them to come back to.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and as I'm hearing you say that, I'm thinking about the hundreds and hundreds of parents who are desperate for a plan. Yeah, right. Parents, there are a lot of parents who really want a plan. They want to see the path, they want to know what to expect. And we're living in a world where that's not always so clear and easy and for our kids, it's not always so clear and easy. So any insights about what to say to parents who are looking for a structured path that may not be where their kid is yet?

Caitlin Garman
I think give yourself, as a parent, some grace and say, OK, I think it's so important as a parent to have your own supportive community, to find, to carve out time in your life, to find what is your passion, your hobby outside of work, outside of your kids, to keep your cup filled a little bit. But it really is so important because I think sometimes as parents, it's so hard not to be so anxious about every single thing that's going on with our child and really seeing, you know, I have toddlers and already I'm like, 'Ooh, where are they going to go to high school again?' You know, that's 12 years down the road. We're OK. We've got time to plan. So just reminding yourself, having a mantra for yourself, 'It's my child. It's OK if my kid doesn't have a plan right now, I will be OK. It will be OK.' Not every kid needs to have a full-fledged plan till they're 26, you know, written up in high school and it'll be OK. And giving yourself some grace to say, 'I'm anxious about this, or I'm upset that this isn't going the way I want it to go and it's going to be OK and I can still be there for my kid.'

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, that's really, really powerful and it's so important to connect and find community. That's what we've found as we started working with parents of young adults; it's crucial for them to connect with each other in our community. And I really appreciate what you're saying: that it's okay not to have a plan right now. And if we can believe that, your kids can believe that.

Caitlin Garman
Absolutely. They're trying to push our need for it on them.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
The person that really has to get out of the way there is us, right? And so sometimes we have to do our own work and manage our own anxiety so that we can be present for our kids with what's important for them. Thank you. Anything else? Do you have a favorite quote or motto that you want to share with our community?

Caitlin Garman
I do, I always go back to that, and it's overused all the time, but that Frederick Douglass quote, "If there's no struggle, there's no progress." I used to have that in my classroom when I was a teacher, and I think it's just so pertinent for kids, for young adults, for parents, right? If there's struggle and it's difficult, it doesn't mean you've failed. It doesn't mean you are a failure. It just means that you're not quite there yet. And that progress, that end goal, often takes some friction and some difficulty. But that you'll get there. And the struggle doesn't mean failure.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful.

Caitlin Garman
I like that. If there's no struggle, there's

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
No progress. Thank you, Caitlyn. Thank you for being here, for sharing your enthusiasm, because clearly you love supporting this population. See it. Thanks for what you're doing for the work of you and your organization and for sharing with our community. I appreciate it. Thank you so much for having me. It's truly a pleasure. To those of you listening, my friends, what are you taking away from this conversation? What's your insight or your awareness? We've talked about a lot of things, talked about the kids, talked about us, talked about the steps that are possible.

What's your insight from this conversation? Not the information, but the insight. And as always, is there some action you want to take based on that awareness? Is there maybe a conversation you want to have with a partner or with your kid? Is there something you want to explore? What's the next step for you based on that insight? As always, my friends, thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids. At the end of the day, you make a huge difference. So thanks for tuning in. The next conversation is going to be with Melanie Socinski. So keep listening. Tune in, and we'll see you on the next one. Take care, everybody.

Helpful Links:

• Parent Expectations: 2 Steps to Success 
• Parenting is Leadership Guide