Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
It all started about eight years ago, really, where the light bulb finally not just went off, but I had decided to really take the leap to start my own business. At that point, I'd been working in higher education for five years. I had my master's in counseling. I decided I didn't wanna be a therapist, but I wanted to figure out how the heck do I marry all of the other previous experiences that I'd had, which was about five years prior to going back to grad school. All of that is to say, I always found myself in some sort of therapeutic or supportive work environment. And then also it was just something that I sought out for my own well-being, right? If I could do art activities or continuously learn new things. I was putting myself in situations where I was learning and growing, and then also advocating for whatever it was that I needed.

But fast forward, I'm working with students in higher education, and this is before the pandemic, right? So, I saw the writing on the wall that ended up really, like, just exploding once students ended up learning from home, which was that there was already a little bit of an epidemic taking place. Why am I here? What am I doing? Oh, my, just resiliency, advocacy things that were showing up, that it wasn't like, you're not college capable. That wasn't the question. It was, are you college-ready? Right? Or are you ready to be an adult, to be independent, and so again, I was enjoying these one-on-one relationships with students, like the rapport building, getting to know 'em as a human, not just a cog in the wheel of this large system, right?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
But what I was identifying with them is, why are you here, right? Like, what is your calling? What are you interested in? Do you have to be a student? Do you really need a college degree to pursue what it is that you wanna pursue? I was having these one-on-one conversations and just realized I'm probably doing a disservice considering my job was in retention and higher education. I was not retaining all these students. Though I should say, caveat, my employer never came back to me and said, you are not doing your job. It was just more of this internal moral dilemma. I was hired to do this thing, and I'm finding myself in conflict of said thing, so I knew that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So I'm gonna stop you really quickly because cuz your story is very familiar to you and it's new to us. And so what I just heard you say was that you were working in a job that was about retention, about helping college kids stay in college, and what you realized was that not all of them might have been best served by staying in college.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Is that what I really...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Just heard?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Thank you for very succinctly describing what I was doing.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yes. Yeah. OK. Which we know, and it may be that they weren't intended to be in college at that, or best suited to be in college at that time. It's not that college wasn't the right choice, but may be the timing was off.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Correct.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Maybe the reason was off or—so. Now keep going.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
It's all the other things, right? It's the grief, it's the loss, it's the traumas, it's the, like, life outside of the classroom was what was impacting the students. So I still wanted to have these relationships with students, but instead of being the support on campus, I wanted to be the guide as they were transitioning off. Like literally, I'm standing on the edge of the sidewalk, just one step off of campus, saying like, I'm here right as you are transitioning out. How can I guide you to figure out where it is that you wanna go, what it is that you wanna do? And so again, because I have my master's in counseling, inherently the majority of students at that point that I was working with were in need of more therapeutic resources.

“Hey, I might need to take a break from school.” It's not just about stepping away from being a student, it's also about, “I just need emotional and mental health support right now.” But that has since expanded. So, consulting for eight years, doing just this one-on-one guiding of young people—and it's not just college students. I wanna be really clear: since the pandemic, one of the things that I've seen expand is more proactive 18-year-olds identifying, “I'm not really ready to be a student right now. I need to take a break. I need to grow up. I wanna have some fun.” I'm working with them, and also with young people that never went to college or aren't going to be going to college ever. They're young adults trying to figure out their path, but might need some support along their journey toward independence.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So what age group were we talking about here?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
All of my clients are over the age of 18. The majority are between the ages of 18 and 25, but I work with clients even upwards of 29. It really just depends on ages, but a number—it's more of a “what is your need; am I a fit for you?”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Yeah. So I appreciate it. Clearly, we talk a lot about emerging adults, and in our community we work with parents of young kids. We often say it's like 3 to 33 or 4 to 44, because what's the average and then the range—sometimes people come home, or sometimes they deal with addiction and come back home, and all kinds of things can influence what impacts young adults who are trying to find a path forward and struggling with it, which is really what you're talking about. Yep. Yeah. And what really strikes me in that conversation is the outside world wants to call them “failure to launch” kids, which I really object to, and my hunch is that you're gonna share that. Tell me how you see these kids.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Oh, thank you for naming that, because that phrase makes me cringe. And yet that's what, unfortunately, a lot of parents and society are still using. It's a way to—yeah, I wish we could step away. Even “failure to thrive” rubs me wrong because failure is the keyword. We're not in a place of failure; it's just we haven't figured out the path. We gotta figure that out. And again, it goes to—we are butting up against what society thinks is OK, and it usually is only a handful of boxes: Are you going to college or are you not? Are you going to a gap program or not? It's binary.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Well, and if you're not, then what are you doing? And are you paying your own way yet by 18? Exactly. In an economy that may not be—

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Right, which is—actually, I had a conversation with somebody the other day and they were like, “25 feels like the old 18.” This idea of maybe you're financially independent at that point. Maybe at that point you are feeling self-supported rather than needing any—and irrelevant of finances, right? They're working a job, they've got social networks, they're living in their own apartment, they've got their own routine, etc., etc. I don't know if that's accurate, and I don't even know anecdotally if I would name 25 as the new 18, but I do think that as a transition into adulthood, emerging adulthood doesn't start at 18, and yet we're still at this place where legally you're an adult. And so there's just this impending transition point that parents, at least that I hear, are fearing. “Oh my gosh—yeah, 18.” A lot's supposed to happen, and it's irrelevant, right? Then you—

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Hit 18 and all of a sudden it fizzles, like, “Yeah, that was—what was I worried about?” But it's interesting because I do see parents that, as their kids get into 18, 19, 20 years old, there's—to your point—this fear around, “Well, if I don't make them take responsibility for [fill in the blank] right now, then they're not gonna make it,” or “I'm being irresponsible,” and there are all kinds of—I'm thinking about a couple in one of my groups. Their kid pulled outta college mid-college experience and is trying to get back to a place of going back to college. The parents are focused on the kid getting a job, whereas the kid is just emotionally trying to get himself ready to go back into community college. So the expectations are not only off, but completely outta sync with each other. Does that resonate for you?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Yeah, it does. Yeah. I mean, again, it's heavy on the expectations, and a lot of that is being pulled from your immediate environment. Oftentimes, there is a disconnect between what the young adult is doing or wanting to do and what the parents are putting in place. I think it's—I tell parents all the time—leaving college or taking a break is totally OK. But not having a plan—and I say “plan” in quotes, because that's really open to interpretation. What is the plan?—needs to be a collaborative conversation.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Well, we're gonna come back and talk about this because you moved into my soapbox when you started talking about collaborative conversation, and sometimes there's a place before the plan, which is, I suspect, where you spend some time. I wanna come back to that. We're gonna take a quick break, everybody, and we'll be right back. My guest is Joanna Lilly, and she works with young adults, emerging adults—18 and older, whatever that is—and we're just starting to talk about disconnect in expectations and the importance of collaborative conversations, which, again, we spent a lot of time working with parents around in this arena. The question I wanna double-click on a little bit is this notion of: if they pull out—like take a break from college—you're saying they need to have a plan. And I'm gonna question a little bit: is there something that happens before you even get to the plan? Sometimes they're at a point where they just need to stop and take the break before they can even figure out what's next. So speak to that just a little bit. Tell me what your experience is.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Yeah, I think—well, there's the important piece, and I think this will resonate with you: we've gotta have supports for the young adult, and we also have to have supports for the parents, because in this process it can be really emotionally charged with expectations, whether they're said or unsaid, which obviously breeds room for resentment once we're under the same roof again. In order for us to really live in this place of harmony—mm-hmm—with the said plan, like you said, taking a step back, the young adult needs to have somebody to work with them to figure out what they’re working toward, right? And taking a break from school—we’re just using that as an example—what do we need? What do you need? It's almost like taking a moment to be really intentional and insightful. Having awareness: Why am I taking a break, right? Like you said, do I just need a break, or do I need to jump right into doing X, Y, Z, right? Because sometimes it's important to slow the pace and take the opportunity to speak with somebody that I identify as a neutral party to process this. Sometimes that could be a therapist, it could be a coach, or it could be someone like me as a consultant—having a one-on-one conversation with the young adult to identify before we get to this opportunity for that collaborative conversation.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So when I was coming along, that was What Color Is Your Parachute? Or there were workshops, books, exercises that were frameworks to have you ideate and think about what you wanted to do. When you think about creating a dynamic with a young adult, is part of it about pulling back from all of the expectations that they've been going through in high school to explore what they care about? What are you doing in that process?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Yeah. It really is giving them the space, and especially when you're saying high school. And even college is so high-pressured. Yeah. And there's just so much go, go, go and in motion. Sometimes we've been scheduled out the moment we wake up till when we go to bed. Sometimes it's just helpful to have an opportunity to explore. And again, I'm saying get true with yourself about what it is that you really want or need.

I really am hesitating in this moment. I tell parents I'm not a coach, but because of being trained as a therapist, the number one thing that I strive for in working with a young adult and meeting with a young adult is just connection and congruence. Sometimes a part of that is me reflecting to them: I'm hearing you say that you really want to transfer schools, but your body language is telling me that you're not on board with that. What's really going on?

But I say all this, and I'm not diving into the weeds of doing therapy with them—“Let's get to the root of what's going on.” I'm also not solution-focused—“Let's just jump straight into goals. What do you need?” It is merely a connection to really get them that non-judgmental, objective party that can be a resource for them—a safe space to talk through: What do you want to do?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
This brings up for me—and I think you and I could probably talk for hours about it—what do you think parents of these young adults need to understand that they often don't before they start, before you meet them? Here's your soapbox: what do parents of emerging adults who are not driving forward on a path—who are in some way struggling on that path or unclear about the path—need to understand?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
I think that for parents specifically, even though I work with young adults for a short amount of time—three months or six months—and I do that because it's digestible for the young adult, now here's how it relates to the parents: they look at that timeline as the customer, and they say, “We have clear expectations for what we're hoping you'll achieve with our young adult during that time.” Every young adult is different. Their needs are rapport-building, establishing, even being on the path leading to where they want to go. Sometimes, for parents that are really analytical, I'm too—my work is too ambiguous—so it feels like a misalignment of their expectations of what it is that I'll be able to co-produce with their young adult. Sometimes my work is hearing them express those frustrations or expectations, and then me sharing why they may not be met based on what is happening for their young adult.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So I want to pull this out of the context of your exchange relationship with that parent and pull to a larger view. You've done a lot of work with this population over a period of time that's been a particularly interesting period, historically speaking. What are parents not getting that their young adults see so clearly, or might be seeing clearly, that the parents don't see?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
That is such a good question because I could probably rattle off a bunch of different things.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I'm curious what comes up, right? Yeah, because you're right, it could be a lot of things.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
I think it goes back to the comment that I made earlier about the “25 is the new 18” comment. I still think we're a little bit—I don't want to say archaic or outdated—in this emerging adult transition. I think the parent perspective of this emerging adult timeline is reflective of their emerging adult timeline. Right now, we're dealing with young adults—we'll call them teens, because that's really what we're talking about—who are developmentally not as independent as previous generations, and so we're dealing with a longer adolescent period.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Why do you think that is? I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just fascinated to hear you say it.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Honestly, I think it has to do with technology. I think it has to do with the fact that we are so socially disconnected from each other that we are slower to make friends. We're slower to be excited for new experiences that put themselves in places or situations that challenge them. I'm saying that for young adults. We've been behind a screen for our entire academic—definitely our entire academic—timeline for young adults right now that are graduating. It's the double-edged sword. It was what advanced us in other ways, but it also has regressed our emerging adult population in others. Parents look at tech as, “Well, I started using tech maybe when I was in my 20s,” or whatever. But the reality is these young people have been—

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
All of their lives.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Yeah. Their entire life.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So yeah, I'll put some episodes in the show notes that we did to talk about tech use, because my youngest is 24, and he said to me, “Mom, there is not a kid my age who hasn't been traumatized by the internet.” We really started doing more conversations and paying attention to that differently. But I think what you're saying is so interesting, because in our world, this audience that we're speaking to right now are parents of complex kids—kids who struggle with some aspect of life, learning, behavior, social-emotional issues—and that makes them developmentally about 3 to 5 years behind their peers in some aspects of their development, but not all.
So there is a developmental delay already in neurodiverse kids. What you're speaking to is that additional layer that's happening from societal changes that have these kids be, on the one hand, more independent—they have their own news sources, their own information. They don't get information from parents the way they used to. On the one hand, they're more independent, but on the other hand, what you're describing is that they are developmentally, in some ways, less ready to be independent in the world that we're now living in, with the expectations that come with it.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Yep.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
It's quite an irony, isn't it?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Yep. I look at what is available to young adults as they turn 18 and are “supposed to move out of the home,” and I would struggle right now if I were in their shoes. I have so much empathy for the young adults that I work with because it's a hard world to be in right now.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I couldn't agree more. Alright, we're going to have to bring this conversation to a pause, but we'll circle back in a second. Everybody, our guest is Joanna Lilley, and she has a consulting firm that works with young adults to help them find their path, basically moving forward in the complex, struggling world that we find ourselves in today. You can find out more about her at Lilley Consulting — https://www.lilleyconsulting.com. She also has a podcast called Success is Subjective, where she highlights non-linear stories and alternative paths to achieve adulthood. I am excited to find out more about that.

Joanna, as we wrap this conversation, is there something we haven't talked about that you want to make sure you share with our parents? Or alternatively, is there something we did share that you want to highlight before we wrap?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
I think this is a hybrid—it is a highlight, but it's also me saying it a little bit differently. I think there's no single path for young adults nowadays, so if any parent listening could hear that, whether it's college now or college later or gap year or whatever. There's no single path for young adults nowadays, and so if you can be open to allowing your young adult to explore what it is that they wanna do and figure it out, I think sometimes creating that path, whether it's piecing things together, can be the best path for their young adult.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. Love that. Thank you. There is no single path for young adults nowadays. And there was a time in the world where there was, I guess, but there certainly isn't now.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Yeah, so true. We've moved away from it, for sure.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. So before we wrap, do you have a favorite quote or motto that you wanna share?

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
You know what? I have it right behind me on my desk, so I see it all the time. “Comparison is the thief of joy.” I think that honestly still resonates with exactly what it is that we just talked about for parents and for young people, and as it relates to technology.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. On so many levels. Beautiful. Thank you. Well, Joanna, thank you. Thanks for bringing your wisdom. I love what you're doing, so thanks for doing it, because I know that there's so many kids out there and, excuse me, young adults, so many people out there who really would benefit and who really—this conversation about “let's look at this population from a different lens”—is so important. Let's look at it in terms of not what do we expect from them, but how can we support them. So I think that's beautiful. Thank you. I appreciate it. So thank you for being here.

Joanna Lilley, MA, NCC.
Thanks for having me.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So those of you listening, check in with yourself for a minute. What are you taking away from this conversation? What's your insight? What's your awareness? What's your A-ha? What are you thinking about now that you weren't thinking about half hour ago? And maybe how do you wanna bring that insight forward with you into your life this week? Is there some way you wanna apply this awareness? Is there a conversation you wanna have with a partner, with one of your kids? Like, what do you wanna do with this insight as you move forward?

And as always, friends, thank you for what you're doing for yourself, for your kids, your engagement in conversations, and consciously thinking about how to be in relationship with them and how to support them in a way that works for them. That's what makes the difference. So thanks for being here, and we'll see you next time. Take care, everyone.