Hilliary Giglio
Well, my journey to becoming a sleep specialist started with the birth of my first child, and he went from being a bad sleeper to a worse sleeper, and I was convinced that he didn't like his bed—like he literally thought he didn't like his bed. I spent hundreds of dollars buying anything in Babies R Us (which still existed then) that was marketed to sleep—gadgets, places to put things—in my house. Nothing helped. My mom actually told me, ''Hey, there are people who can help you with this. There are sleep consultants.'' I had this really big first-time mom ego, like moms have been getting their babies to sleep for thousands of years. I thought, ''I'm no different. Whatever. Thanks, Mom.'' And a little bit later, I took my son to a mama-baby yoga class, and the teacher happened to also be a sleep consultant. So we got chatting. Long story short, she ended up giving me her card, stuck it in my purse (pretended to forget about it). He was about seven months old when I pulled that card out and was like, ''OK, I'm just gonna call her and have a conversation.'' I ended up hiring her, and she changed my entire life—literally in three days.

My child went from waking up every 45 minutes to nursing back to sleep. He then slept 11 hours straight in his own bed. And he is 7½ years old now. My background before that: I have a bachelor's in psychology and a master's in social work. I had worked with children and families in various capacities before then. I hated returning to working long hours after becoming a mom. The stars just aligned, and I was like, ''This is it. This is my form of social work because the effects of a child not sleeping—just one tiny human—affect an entire family and beyond: our relationships, our careers, our parenting, our own mental and physical health.'' And, I shortly thereafter got certified and opened my business, which will be celebrating seven years in July. I've been doing this for almost seven years, and it's been really fun over the years combining my traditional social work and psychology background with my sleep work for all families. It really informs how I work with any family in a very individualized way, and it has allowed me to work with kids when parents thought there was no one who could really help them with their sleep.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. In our community, you know, we talk about parenting. We support parents of complex kids and the professionals who support them. And sleep is a huge issue in the realm of neurodiversity. It's so interesting because all the experts in the world will tell you that it's a problem, but very few are actually willing to talk about how to address it, what can be done about it other than your classic, sleep diet, sleep hygiene. You get this same traditional stuff, but when it comes to parenting complex kids, it's actually a little different. So, tell us a little bit about the work that you do with families of complex kids in particular.

Hilliary Giglio
Right. So, everything that I do with families is fully and completely customized, no matter the child's background or what they're bringing to the table. However, when we are talking about a complex kiddo, we really dig into what kind of things do they appear to thrive in during the day, what sort of routine, structured activities—because I wanna know what's going on in the day too. We can't only look at sleep; I need to know how your child operates, how they exist in the day, and how is it. Also, because so many of these kiddos have a variety of sensory preferences, I like to dig into their sensory profiles and determine if they are sensory seeking or sensory avoiding. It's crucial to drill down into that because everyone tells you, ''No matter what type of child you have, bedtime routine, bedtime routine, bedtime routine.'' I agree. However, a bedtime routine for one child versus another versus another is going to look very different in order to serve its purpose. It's not just a fluff word-queuing system for the body and brain. The sleep is coming, and depending on how your brain processes sensory information, that routine will look very different. It all starts with a really big, comprehensive assessment of what's going on for the child and for the family, and then I write a fully customized plan of action.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Well, and I'm sitting here listening to you, and my kids are now adults, and I'm remembering how different each of them was as a sleeper—just as an infant and a baby. Like, there was the one who put herself to sleep every night at 7:30; there was another who was staying awake. And when I think about it now as adults, they're still on their rhythm. Each has a very different rhythm.

Hilliary Giglio
For sure, and we all do. There are some general aspects, like how much sleep a human of a certain age typically needs, but how that sleep is accomplished—how easy or hard it is, and what time of day it happens—is very individualized for all humans.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So are we talking about just little kids, or are we talking about all ages?

Hilliary Giglio
In my practice, I specifically work with parents from birth to about 10 years old. I do have some colleagues who are certified for adults, and they bridge the gap in the tween and teen age, right? I've worked with a couple of kids outside of that range when we've decided this program was still a good fit, but that's my main area of focus.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
OK. So what do you think is important for parents to understand? Parents tuning in are like, "Sleep, help, help.'' Right. So what do you think it's important for parents to understand better about this context? What are they missing?

Hilliary Giglio
Well, first thing, before we get into the details of what to look for, I find that parents—and myself included—I didn't share this in my story, but I've got two complex kids of my own, so I've learned along the way. I find that we often maybe blame ourselves, thinking nothing's going to work because we've tried everything under the sun. I just wanna reassure parents that yes, sleep and the behavioral side of preparing for sleep are important. But sleep is a biological need, so there's a lot of biology involved, and that plays a role. Usually, what happens is we don't have the right combination. Sleep's like a puzzle. It's super complex. There are a lot of nuances to getting everything just right, but that's usually where it is. Maybe you've tried a good bedtime routine, but you're missing aspects related to nutrition, or the time your kid goes to sleep, or the physical sleep environment—because it's not just sleep hygiene, it's not cookie cutter yet.

Sleep hygiene aspects are still important, and usually it's just that you haven't found the right combo. It doesn't mean everything you're doing is wrong. Typically, when I work with families, we'll keep some pieces of their routine, but then we'll add in or change a lot of things as needed. Everything starts at bedtime, and then we look at that transition to bedtime. That transition will look different. For example, children with ADHD might need to expend more energy; they often need a greater sense of control or autonomy. We're gonna talk about how to build in choices within limits for preparing for bed, whereas kids who struggle with anxiety really need to feel safe and capable at bedtime. And so, how we might set up a routine and prepare for them is going to look very different; it's going to be much more calming.

We might do visualizations or bodywork, and parents learn how to guide their children, and, depending on the child's age, teach them how to self-implement these things. We really gotta start there before we can expect an A+ on the rest of the night. When we nail that bedtime routine and we're consistent, then we can start talking about the best approach to foster more confidence and more independence. Cuz a lot of times, what comes next is that the parent has to be heavily involved for a long period to get the child to sleep. Not always, but often, a 30-minute bedtime routine is followed by 90 minutes of trying to get the child back to bed or having to lie with them. And parenting's exhausting no matter what. When the child gets the sleep they need, then everyone functions better.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, with parents, you need a break. My memory is that was my husband's famous line: when we got the kids to sleep, we'd go downstairs, and inevitably we'd hear somebody walking around, or someone saying they can't sleep or need some water, and my husband would say it's really hard to sleep when you're walking around. That simple idea. So there is something you're saying about really targeting the individual child. How does that work when a family has multiple kids with different needs?

Hilliary Giglio
Good question. It depends on the age gaps of the children. I work with many families with multiple kids. The hardest scenario is when one parent works evenings and there's only one parent at home, or when the ages of the children mean their bedtimes line up at exactly the same time. In that case, when I work with families, I talk about ways to slightly shift one schedule relative to the other because sometimes the complex kiddo may need more attention. Where we might not be able to do just one bedtime routine—throw them all in the bath, read them all a book—right? And so we don't want you doing this all night long, but if we can slightly stagger, we can talk about how to shift just slightly. And it works really great. I also personally used to give my oldest child a basket of toys. It could be not toys for an older child, but something that they could do independently that they would enjoy doing.

And it only came out when I was getting baby brother ready for bed, and he would sit outside the bedroom but within earshot. And the goal was, “Can I get 20 minutes with this child while keeping you entertained?” Sometimes it does work out, though, where we mostly can do a routine together—get ready for bed together—but then for the last 10 minutes, maybe we split off. That works easiest in a two-parent household where everybody's home at bedtime. But those are the kinds of scenarios that are not everybody's reality. It's not everybody's reality. I have done it all—in terms of one parent, two parents, live-in grandparents, all the different situations, multiple homes. And so it really comes down to looking very specifically, as you said, it's not just about that individual child but it's what else is going on with the family.

Because you can go buy a book on pediatric sleep, but sometimes that's not your life. And you're like, “Well, OK, that's not going to work.” Or if your child doesn't respond like the book says they should, then you're like, “OK. What now?”
So customizing this—but then also having someone support you as you're implementing—is crucial. It's not just about the information. When I work with people privately, they've got me for at least three weeks checking in in very close communication on a daily basis during those first three weeks. Sometimes with complex kiddos, it takes longer, and that's OK.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
OK. So, I have a few questions. I wanna ask one, then we'll take a break, and then I'll give you a scenario. The first question is: What are your thoughts about older siblings reading and being part of bedtime for younger siblings?

Hilliary Giglio
I like that. No matter who is the 'bedtime nanny'—a grandmother, a sibling—the most important thing is that if the child can tolerate that change, if it's always Big Brother, then that's not changing. But some kiddos won't tolerate change easily. If the child responds well to that, I love that connection and interaction. Predictability in routines is super important for all of us. We need to know that at the end of the routine, it's time to go to sleep. If different people come in at various times to that routine, then the boundaries or expectations we just want to make sure that kind of the boundaries or the expectations around what this is gonna look like stay the same. So, that rules are one thing for one person and one thing for another. Because that can start to create a whole snowball effect of the routine, no longer being effective

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
In our work at Impact Parenting, we talk about flexible structure, and what I hear you describing is that you want a very clear, boundaried structure with the ability to be flexible within it—so that if it's this person or that person, that's OK—but the routine remains the same.

Hilliary Giglio
Right. For example, sometimes my son will want me to read a book to him; sometimes he'll practice reading; sometimes we'll listen to an audiobook; sometimes we lie in his bed together while listening; sometimes he's in a sensory swing because he needs a little swinging before he lies down for the night. If your child responds well to that sort of flexibility, then yes, build that in. The order of activities remains the same, but you allow for flexibility and choices within limits.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Welcome back, everybody. I'm in a conversation with Hilary Giglio about sleep—particularly sleep with complex kids. She's done a beautiful job describing the importance of structure, but also the ability for flexibility within it, and how individualized it is. I was very curious about your work, talking about how you might do one thing for kids with ADHD, another for kids with anxiety, perhaps another for kids on the spectrum, and another for kids with all of the above. The scenario I wanna give you is an 8-year-old girl who has an older sibling, is on the spectrum, and has some anxiety. She's really struggling with sleep. Parents have tried everything—they've talked to experts, done absolutely everything they could think of—and the child is just afraid to be alone in the room.

Really afraid to be alone in the room. We did the work of helping her build tolerance for being alone during the day. And I hear this a lot with complex families: the kid will wake up in the middle of the night, go to the parents' room, go back to sleep—the kid gets the sleep, but the parents don't. So what questions might you ask in that scenario, or what advice might you offer?

Hilliary Giglio
Questions—I would want to know when this response to being alone started, if it's always been that way or, if it emerged at a certain age, and whether any life circumstances were involved. I would also want to know about their sleep habits and patterns because we'll pull that in, too. I'd want to know what has been tried and for how long, because trying something for one or two nights doesn't always mean it won't work. Then, I would ask what makes the child feel safe—beyond just having somebody there. That way, we can start to design a ''safe sleep sanctuary'' which might include optimizing the physical sleep environment. What kind of sound or noise helps? Perhaps white noise or soft music? Maybe aromatherapy or a diffuser hour before bedtime? And for anxious kiddos, I like to bring in affirmations; I use what I call sleep cards and affirmations in my client's bedtime routine. Based on the child and even the day, they might pull one of these cards as an opportunity for parent and child to talk about what it means. If it's a sleep card, it may give a tip they can try. They might wake up in the night, and we're not ignoring it—we're not focusing on everything they might be afraid of, but rather on things that help them calm and self-soothe.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So we do a lot of work around ownership—whose agenda is it?—and can you speak a little bit about what happens in this scenario or any other, when the parents become so tightly needing for the kid to sleep, but the kid may not be bought in? I imagine you experience that a few times.

Hilliary Giglio
Yes. So, when we have kids at walking and talking age and above, it is super important to bring them into the process. We’re not just telling them that they need to do something, but explaining why it is important in terms that they will care about. For example, some of the things that are really important for a child—benefits that they might not care about if it helps them focus better at school when they don’t love school—might be found in the activities or friendships that they truly enjoy; we can then build that connection back to sleep. I also love to find a non-parent adult who is a good sleeper to be a buddy with, because sometimes someone who is not the parent talking about it can have a different conversation.

And so it can be a family member or a friend—someone that the parent already knows and trusts—whom the child can look up to and have those conversations with outside of the parent’s voice. Even at age 8, I would use some interactive tools, so there might be a routine that they can follow and lead themselves through. I use this a lot with kids on the spectrum, with ADHD, and with any child. Then, it might be about clarifying our expectations. Usually, when it’s bedtime, we’re supposed to lie in bed and be quiet and we can’t force anyone to sleep. But if we can lie in bed quietly—without noise or screaming down the house—and every family is different (some families even build in a temporary incentive process), that is important.
I don’t expect parents to reward their child for sleeping for the next 20 years, and some kids don’t need that—it’s not our go-to.

But sometimes we build that up gradually. If we’re using interactive tools or making changes to the sleep routine (and at age 8 I would include the child in the process of choosing options), you can practice that new bedtime routine and familiarize the child with those tools before any changes occur. I find that the older the kid gets, starting at about age 3, they tend to need a little more preparation time—like an infant, for lack of a better word, we kind of pull off the bandaid. In other words, give them time to familiarize themselves and to know what is coming before anything changes. And then, once things do change, the parents need to have a consistent set of strategies for how they are going to respond. It can be gradual, it can be gentle. You don’t have to tuck them in and leave the room completely on the first night. Instead, you might start with being more involved, and then gradually the kids stay in their bed and put themselves to sleep. This can be a very gradual process.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. So I would love to continue the conversation, but we really have to wrap up. I know you mentioned people can find out more about you on your website, on Facebook, and Instagram. It's at Tranquil Beginnings Sleep—all of that will be in the show notes.

Hilliary Giglio
Yes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So if you are interested in more support or referrals for older kids, you can reach out to Hilary directly there. Absolutely. Beautiful. OK, so before we wrap up, I have two questions for you. The first is: Is there anything we haven't talked about that you think we should mention for parents, or is there something you want to highlight? How do you wanna wrap your conversation?

Hilliary Giglio
I think we hit a lot of the big points about really drilling in on identifying the struggle. We touched on that a little bit with your scenario. When children reach an age and if they have the communication skills to do this with you, having a collaborative process from the beginning can be really, really helpful. Consistency is important, but it starts with having those conversations upfront so that you're developing buy-in. We're not 100% deciding this now—we might structure certain things, like ''We're not gonna watch TV during bedtime,'' but get them at the table in a no-pressure way. Then, once there's an agreement on a plan, you have to be consistent. And it's not that you can never make changes. And don't be afraid to reach out for help. You know, there's, there's stuff with timing, like I've seen kiddos that need a much later or earlier bedtime, and sometimes we don't find that out. I mean, I've seen some trends with kiddos with various different things going on, but sometimes it takes 10 days in before we. Figure out exactly what we need to tweak, right? And so that's where having someone myself or otherwise kind of help that can kind of combine both those things, see what's happening, watch what happens as your child responds to the plan, and help you make those changes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, I can totally support that. I have a memory of tweaking things as my kids were growing up and working with them in the process. The coach-approach is all about being in a collaborative process of problem solving. There were times when it was a late night this or that, and as an adult with ADD, consistency can be a scary word for me because I'm not always at my best. That's why the idea of knowing what the plan is—and what the expectations are when you deviate from it—is so important. You can break the rules if you know what they are, but if you don't have clear rules first, then you're all over the place. And that's really what I hear you saying.

Hilliary Giglio
And parents know their child best. In my house, we have days when it is a very off day, and things look very different. I just want parents to know that their input and knowledge of their child is crucial.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. Hilary, thank you. I wish we'd gotten to talk about mornings too, so maybe we'll have another conversation. It's hard to discuss evenings without addressing mornings. But before we wrap, do you have a favorite quote or motto that you wanna share with our community?

Hilliary Giglio
Yes, I'll make it quick because I have two that relate to two areas of my life. One is, I love the quote, ''Your child is not giving you a hard time. They are having a hard time.'' That was the backdrop on my cell phone for years. And then, as an adult, I've come to realize, ''Your thoughts become your reality.'' I've really been focused on my own mindset, because I realized that sometimes my thoughts were unknowingly sabotaging things in my life.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So beautiful. Your thoughts become your reality. A very coach-approach to life, I would say. Thank you. So everybody, my guest has been Hilary Gilio. Thank you so much for being here. All of the information is in the show notes about where she can provide support at Tranquil Beginnings Sleep (you can visit tranquilbeginningssleep.com for more details). So, Hilary, thank you. First of all, let me ask those of you listening: what are your insights from this conversation? What are you taking away from our conversation over the last 20–30 minutes? What are you aware of now that you might not have been aware of 25 minutes ago? And perhaps, is there one action you might want to take based on that insight to bring forward and try in your week, in the coming week? And as always, folks, thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids. At the end of the day, it makes a huge difference. Stay tuned, keep listening to more podcast episodes.

Not exactly sure what the next conversation will bring, but I know what the past ones have been—and there are hundreds of beautiful conversations. So, I encourage you to tune into the library, find out what you're looking for, and continue being in conversation about collaborative parenting for complex kids. And again, thanks for being here, everybody, and we will see you on the next one. Take care.

Helpful Links:

• Parent Expectations: 2 Steps to Success 
• Parenting is Leadership Guide