Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Michelle, welcome back everybody to another conversation. Our guest today is Michelle Garcia Winner, and she is the founder of all things, Social Thinking. And I'm super excited to get into this conversation today to talk about executive function through the lens of Social Thinking. So Michelle, thank you for being here.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Thanks. I also want to say that I am a speech language pathologist. That's my profession which then founded, Social Thinking, but I've been doing this since the late 1990s.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Awesome. Well, that was the question. The next question we were gonna ask is, How did you come to be doing this work? So.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: How doing this work all about?

Michelle Garcia Winner: Gonna graduate school in the 80s, I had the good fortune I was at Indiana University in the Speech Language Department, but not affiliated with the speech and language department, it was a program for helping individuals with autism, and today we would describe those folks as autism, on the spectrum of autism level three. 

This is the group with intellectual learning challenges and nonverbal, minimally verbal, and I learned a ton. And you learn to observe when people can't talk to and I learned a ton, and it was a very compassionate behavioral approach, and it was valuable, and it was important because that group can't learn with language.

They don't have the ability to really think about thinking and actively reflect in a way that's obvious to us. And so that was great. I then ended up getting my master's moving back to San Francisco area where I am from and ultimately worked in a clinic for individuals with head injury and stroke, and learned a ton about the neurology and how the brain works. 

And then I ended up working in a school district, in a high school, and this is in the 1990s and who's on the caseload of a high school speech language pathologist, but a whole lot of people who have social learning challenges or differences and organizational challenges, all different diagnosis, ADHD, autism spectrum, social communication, and no diagnosis. Just need help. Michelle, can you slip them on your caseload? 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. 

Michelle Garcia Winner: And there I learned.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: To do something.

Michelle Garcia Winner: But, I was a really good compassionate behaviorist.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. 

Michelle Garcia Winner: So, I did with my compassionate behavioral approach rewarding people, and I found that my highly verbal clientele were highly offended and were so angry about the services they had been receiving over the years, that they wanted nothing to do with me. 

In fact, they were just mad. So that got me to start thinking, How do I meet their needs? What is it that they want? And I started talking to them about how the social world works, rather than teach them what to do in the world, I started saying, let's figure it out. And that led me to start getting them to walk around the campus and just observe things with me, and that ultimately became the backbone of what, Social Thinking, is all about, which has two parts. 

Understand how the social world works before you can help yourself figure out how to participate in a way that you feel comfortable with to meet your own goals. So a lot of my clients, were by themselves. They may not have anyone to talk to. So people were like, they're happy by themselves. No one's happy by themselves all the time.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So can I mean, there's so much rich stuff here, but can we go back? Because I am so I am an adult with ADD and I fixated on it, they were so angry. And I'm not clear what they were angry about. You were solving a problem, but I'm not clear what the problem was you were solving.

Michelle Garcia Winner: They were angry because previous to me showing up on campus, all the systems that were helping them are trying to help them were behavioral, which meant you were either right or wrong, and you either got a reward or a punishment.

And it wasn't about understanding them and trying to listen to them and understanding what their questions were and what their goals were. It was we making assumptions that what you're doing is unacceptable. 

You need to go to this program, and now the program is gonna decide for you what you should be working on, and it's gonna reward you when you meet that and it's going to possibly punish you if you don't do it. And it's a very dehumanizing process for those.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Who have the ability to reflect, and that the term for that is medical mission, our ability.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: And others, thoughts and feelings, actions, intentions, that kind of stuff.

Diane Dempster: Well. And what you're describing. A lot of parents would say that there are certain modalities of behavior support that just don't fit for them as the parent trying to do the thing. But what you're describing is that, particularly in the teen and young adult world, it doesn't fit for them either.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Even for little ones. I mean, I was working with gifted six and seven-year-olds who were super angry. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What strikes me the language that we often use in our community talking with parents, is there's so much that we want from our kids, and we're not taking the time to slow down and want for them. And what I hear that you did was you shifted from wanting from them their behavior and wanting for them to meet what they wanted in terms of their ability to communicate. Does that feel accurate?

Michelle Garcia Winner: Yes, and there's a place in there, which is whether you're a parent, a teacher, a therapist, a counselor, your effectiveness depends on your ability to understand the individual that you're trying to help.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right? 

Michelle Garcia Winner: And so what I did was leaned into learning all about my individuals. So if somebody had a video camera in my room watching me how effectively I was working with somebody on changing behavior, I would fail, because I didn't go in with the idea that I was gonna change my behavior.

I started evolving this idea of understanding your individual understand what their dilemmas have been, what are their frustrations, what are their celebrations, and why they feel so angry. And what can I do based on that information? 

It was from all these things I learned that I started breaking down the social and organizational worlds, giving them information that helped them start to land in a place that made sense to them, and then gave them tools to start learning how they could approach their working learning, interacting with others in a way that met their goals rather than met my goal.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right? 

Diane Dempster: Well, and what you're saying is that the people that gave you the indication that it wasn't working were the ones that were angry, and I'm gonna hypothesize that there was another group of people who were having difficulty as well, but they had checked out, right? 

It's just sort of, I go back to the fight or flight. And so you were really aware that people were like, this isn't working for me, versus the people who are not engaging because it wasn't working for them well.

Michelle Garcia Winner: And there's one more group, and I know this overlaps. There is not a clear break between the autism spectrum and ADHD. There's an absolute overlap. 

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. 

Michelle Garcia Winner: In the world of both communities, there is a subgroup of individuals who are very, very literal in how they interpret information. And when you are very literal, you also struggle to observe the world around you and make sense of it, because the world around you is abstract. 

It's constantly changing. You're having to try to figure out what people are thinking and feeling. They may say one thing, but mean something other than what they're saying, right? That's sarcasm.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: All this kind of stuff.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Idiom, right?

Michelle Garcia Winner: Subgroup of folks who are actually not great, we don't recommend that they use social thinking because they don't have strong enough language skills to be able to reflect. Because we teach with language, we teach with visual support, with language to explain how the social world works, to help people meet their goals by doing things differently in the world based on their own needs. 

So there is a subgroup of folks who are super literal, and they often appear very spacey. It's not that they're intentionally spaced out. It's just the world around them is happening too quickly that they can't tune in, and so they're often reciting in their head favorite cartoons or, whatever area of interest you might find them just kind of lost in their own world. 

And that's a whole different type of learning need, and that is who I used to work with and specialize in, I realized those who have strong language and the ability to reflect on what they're doing need a very different approach, and that is what kicked me into gear with, Social Thinking.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Got it.

Diane Dempster: So, I mean, I'm I need a little bit more concrete understanding of Social Learning and kind of what is there an example of a client where it's like, okay, we did this, and we were observing that would be helpful for me as a background. Is this a good time to do that? 

Michelle Garcia Winner: Okay. Well, Let's start with the point of view. I know this is big in your community. It's big in all communities. Anxiety, like all humans have anxiety, it's part of human nature, but a subset of humans, especially those who end up diagnosed with things like ADHD, autism spectrum, borderline personality disorder, or whatever it is, have what I call compelling social anxiety, and so they can want to do things differently, but their social anxiety just puts a big stop sign on doing it. And it's not that they don't want it, they just don't they can't manage their anxiety.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: So one of the things we started doing to help as for those with compelling anxiety is not keep pushing them, okay, yes, and go do something differently.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Right? One of my clients who was a teenager went to an elite, private boys school. He would go to the counselor because he had so much anxiety, and the counselor literally took my client, who was about 16 at the time, to a window that looked down on the for lack of better words, playground for the high schoolers.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: And counselor pointed at the kids, and he said to my 16-year-old, look, see how all those people are interacting. Just go do that. Stop. Just go do that. But that happens quite a bit. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Michelle Garcia Winner: So what does it mean to just go do that? And that's where we step in and go, Okay, first, none of us just go do that. We all start with observing how the social world works to be able to make sense of how we might want to participate.

All of this is part of what's called executive functioning, and the key to executive functioning, the reason you're involving executive functioning is if there's a goal, any goal driven behavior requires you to engage in the executive functioning process.

Now, those words executive functioning really aren't very friendly, right? They're a little intimidating. So what I started doing was like, Okay, let's take these words we keep hearing out there and break them down in a way to help you understand what they mean and how you're part of how we can all work within this process to meet our goals. So with your permission, I'd like to share a slide and just show you while I talk about like, how would I define executive functioning? 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Sure. 

Michelle Garcia Winner: Every human on earth who has self awareness can relate to this.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Love it.

Michelle Garcia Winner: All right, so you guys can see that?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Michelle Garcia Winner: All right. So we can talk about using executive functions that help us with our executive functioning. So what are some of the executive functions? One is you have to it always starts with the goal. If you can't name your goal, then you're not really focused on a process that's gonna help you in the long run. If you can't name your goal, and someone says, just go do this behavior, you may memorize doing that behavior, but you don't know how to apply it in other situations. So the first thing is, what's your goal? 

A goal is something you think about. So let's take a common problem that many of our folks face is they struggle with social initiation. They have a lot of anxiety. It holds them back. They're not even sure how to do it, and so the goal is to initiate approaching a group of one to two other people who they know for whatever reason. It may be that the classroom teacher says, go find a group and work with it. It may be that you've got free time, like lunchtime, and you don't want to be by yourself, which our guys don't always want to be by themselves. 

Certainly, all of us want to be by ourselves sometimes. So the goal is, let's say, to initiate joining a group when we want to be part of that group. So then we have a series of parallel action plans, which we then need to do. So we also call these to-do's. We have a series of sequenced or parallel to-do's, and those are the do the things that we actually need to do in order to meet that goal. So if you want to join one or two people, you have to begin by seeing. Where those people are. So there's observation. You have to physically approach the group in a way, and that involves your feet, your knees, your shoulders. We all align. If you watch people stand together, their feet, knees, hips, shoulders, and heads are all in alignment. 

If it's one person talking to the other the way we understand we're talking to each other when people see us is that we're both mirroring each other in that way. If a third person joins a group, we subtly shift. Shift Happens. We shift our bodies a little bit. So now that we're all doing that, so we have a series of to-do's that we know we need to do. We know we need to approach this group, we need to move into a distance that communicates that we want to be with people. Some of our folks stand way too far back.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Way too close. right? 

Michelle Garcia Winner: Way too close. Right. So figuring out that distance and these are part of the things we need to do. So these are the general outlines of the process that you need to do to meet your goal, but in the first two steps right now, all you're doing is thinking about it. You've done nothing differently. All you're doing is saying, Here's my goal, here's what I know I need to do. 

Step three is a huge step. Now you've got to be able to self-regulate your behavior and your feelings in order to carry out your to-do's or action plans to accomplish your goal, and that's where social anxiety can really step in and stop you. 

And so now, part of what we would put in to do's is working on strategies to manage social anxiety if that is a big stopper, and now we've got to figure out, okay, am I ready for step three? I understand what I need to do to meet this goal, but can I actually do it? Well, this takes practice and it takes grace. It takes forgiving ourselves and others all working collaboratively. Understanding this is super uncomfortable. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: I've worked with teenage adults who standing within one arm's length of another person really creeps them out. So they may stand three arm's length back with their idea that I want to be part of your group. Here's where I'm comfortable standing. What's hard about that is no one else understands that your intentions are to be part of that group, so then people won't include you, and then that ramps up your anxiety more. So what are your strategies that help you to self-regulate, not only knowing what to do, but how to manage anxieties, to help you do something and manage your feelings in a way so that you can carry out your goal? And then step four is to realize you've got to be flexible throughout this entire process. Sometimes our goals slightly change. Sometimes the to-do's we're doing has to be modified, and how we're self-regulating our emotions and behavior. Be kind to yourself if you've lived 14 years and never done this. Well, you're not gonna do it well just because you read these lines, you're gonna give yourself grace and the people you're working with, at our clinic, we often work in small groups, and then the individuals can encourage each other and notice the progress each other is making, and really they also can help give constructive feedback. A lot of times, we find that peers giving each other constructive feedback can be a lot more valuable than professionals giving constructive feedback.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful. 

Diane Dempster: It's really interesting. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We take away this the share so that we can see each other. 

Diane Dempster: Okay.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Awesome.

Diane Dempster: Michelle, that's really fascinating. I have a couple of young adults in my world with autism, and I can absolutely see them in this process of step by step by step. And as I'm listening to you, I'm thinking about all of my complex kids with ADHD as well, and just how complicated what you're describing is and it's this sort of it happens to all of us, but how often we just do it automatically, particularly whether we're normative or neurodivergent, there are some of us that are more savvy at just making this happen versus here's all the steps that go into just that one example. So that was really helpful.

Michelle Garcia Winner: You see a person holding back. And, I've even seen counselors and psychologists make this mistake. They see the person holding back, but they don't really understand what's holding that person back.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: And so then they get mad at them, like my example of the counselor, it's like, just go join them.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Just go, do it. Right?

Michelle Garcia Winner: Right. And so we're always, I'm a speech pathologist. I in graduate school learned nothing about mental health anxiety that was always for mental health people to handle, except when it comes to the social world. You have to be able to manage your anxiety, even if you're neuro normative, right? We all have to manage our anxiety to be able to figure out how to help ourselves meet our own goals and some days, we do it better than others. 

So we also have to give ourselves, Grace about the fact that, sometimes you literally, roll up, roll out bed on the side. That's just like.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Just like for the day. 

Michelle Garcia Winner: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: There are a lot of things in what you're talking about that I'm fascinated by, kind of like, like you were saying, Diane, the thing that really jumped at me early in your discussion here was you started off saying, everybody has some anxiety, right? Especially in the world, we're in these days. And there's this way in which I hear you talking about anxiety as social anxiety, and I'm curious about the disconnection, or whether it's even important to disconnect. 

Again, as you were talking about your examples, I was thinking about an article I wrote years ago about when I realized the ways in which my social anxiety actually led to my becoming a leader. And what I talked about was that I always as a social person with social anxiety, gravitated to the edges of the room, and the front of the room is the edge of the room.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, I'm curious about the collapsing of social anxiety and anxiety, and whether that's important.

Michelle Garcia Winner: So, I make a difference between anxiety and compelling anxiety.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Right? And to me compelling anxiety, and I'm sure different professions have different names for it, because we shouldn't be treating all anxiety as something as a pathological problem, right? 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: We all have some level of stress and anxiety, and some days that feel more compelling than others. But those who live in a world where anxiety is like a magnet that holds them back, have serious, compelling anxiety, and now part of their toolkit has to be about managing their anxiety, but you can really only learn to manage your anxiety if your inner coach in our brain, we have our inner coach, and we have our self defeater, Dr. Dan Siegel and his colleagues talk a lot about that the upstairs downstairs brain, the upstairs brain is the inner coach that helps us take charge and do things, even if we're uncomfortable, if we know that they're the right thing for us to do. 

The downstairs brain is the impulsive brain that can sideswipe us so figuring out how to take charge, how to be aware of avoiding getting sideswiped by our own, neurology, or a weak moment, all of that stuff.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: Well, it's interesting. I mean, it's like, whenever you listen to something like this, you try to narrow into something that you can relate to. And the thing that immediately popped in, as you were saying that when I was a kid, my social anxiety showed up, and I could not get on the phone and talk to somebody that I didn't know, right? 

And my parents would be, just call them, just the same sort of thing. And it would have been helpful for me to be able to use your steps and go, Okay, so what is it that's getting in the way? What is it? How do I walk through this to understand? What are the things that I need to do in this to navigate my own nervous system as well as understand the process more effectively?

Michelle Garcia Winner: So if you're interested, I actually over the years with my clients, with these teenage groups, myself and my colleague PAM Group, we're working with, and here we are a speech pathologist, but what's preventing our clients from moving forward in as robust a way as we all hope, is this level of anxiety. 

So we created with our teenagers what I brought this in as a proposition to them, and then they have no problem telling me what's right and wrong about it from their perspective. So all of the work that we create in social thinking is a...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Collaborative.

Michelle Garcia Winner: With the people we work with, and so we created what's called the spirals of success and the spiral of failure. And I've asked my clients if we could change failure because it sounds so awful over instead of, spiral success. Can we say spiral of attempts, or blah, blah, blah? And my clients are like, no. Like, stop it. Call it what it is.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It is what it is.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Sometimes there are mistakes made. Yep. 

Michelle Garcia Winner: So if you want, I can show your audience what these spirals are, but we would not start with these spirals. We would only start using them once our students are showing that they're learning about the social world.

They're learning strategies, the to-do's to help them advance themselves, and then kind of that last frontier, maybe not the last frontier, but a big frontier than to cross is now that I know about it, and I know that I have the ability to do it. How do I do it in a place that I'm not as comfortable when I'm with you, Michelle, I'm comfortable. I can now do this. Right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: How do I translate it, and map it to others? 

Diane Dempster: So I'm gonna suggest that we, that we send people. I'm sure you were gonna, you're gonna talk about your website, and I'm guessing that there's probably a blog or a webinar or something out on your website that talks specifically about the spiral.

Michelle Garcia Winner: So they can just go on our website, which is, socialthinking.com. And they can just go and put in the search bar spirals of anxiety. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And it got.

Michelle Garcia Winner: It is an article, as well as the two visuals. But the big mistake we humans make is we rush to try to get to the endpoint. So we rush to get to, let me just show you these spirals, rather than help our folks work through the process, slowly, deliberately, compassionately, at a place that makes sense to them, focusing on what it is they want for themselves, not what you want for them. 

So, parents, that's a hard shift, because there's so much anxiety you have, I have, as a parent, to be able to help. So, yes, just go to spirals of anxiety. But also, now or you start using those, there's a whole lot of learning about how the social world works. 

To that end, we do things like teach about your brain has a social detective, and the detective just we teach about how you be a detective of what's going on, and then you have a super flexible aspect of your brain that helps you adapt behavior and feelings as needed for yourself to accomplish your goals.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Awesome. And I really want to acknowledge what you just said, because Diane, and I, this is what we teach in our community from a coach approach all the time, is to be in the process of problem-solving, and not jump to the solution. And it's so hard not to jump to the solution, but if you jump there, then you don't know how you got there, so you don't actually know how to use it in a way that really works. So really acknowledge that.

Michelle Garcia Winner: That point, what's really, really important is to realize that our social selves cannot be memorized. Like even saying hi to somebody. You don't say hi to somebody the same way, every time you see them, in a day, you start with a robust like, if we see one of our friends or, colleagues, we start by looking at them with a smiley, friendly face, perhaps a gesture, perhaps a vocal response. That's the first time we see them. The second time we see them, we pass them and we may just give them a friendly face. The third time we see them, we act like we've not seen them, because over greeting someone is really creepy. 

So now, how do you teach those processes? And it's not let me memorize every time I greet somebody, I should go, hi, because if you do that every time you see them, now, a person is starting to go, what's up with that person? We've already said hi today.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. So you really have to go through the nuance of it. So we do need to wrap this conversation and thank you for that. So, for more information, you go to, socialthinking.com. 

In particular, if you're interested in that last section of the conversation, you can search for spirals of anxiety as we wrap the conversation, and I want to ask you to kind of highlight anything that you want to highlight, or maybe if there's something else you want to add, I want to add a question, because one of the things that really struck me about what you said at the beginning is the kind of work you're talking about in that aspect of executive function. 

You use the term that it's always goal oriented. And I know that a lot of parents of kids with ADHD will hear that and go, but my kid doesn't have any goals, and I hear you saying, well, we want to figure out what's important to them, but I want you, as you're wrapping this conversation up, can you speak to that relationship between goals for kids who may struggle to make set goals for themselves?

Michelle Garcia Winner: Well, first of all, I think we have to figure out what kind of goal we're having. Is it a long-term goal, like I want to get an A in this or a B in this class, or is it just an immediate goal I need to get out of bed this morning to be able to get to school?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Any intention based activity that serves a purpose, is a goal oriented activity. So it's just us recognizing that goals can be tiny, little things like, I'm sure all of us have a lot of examples of students who just don't get out of bed in the morning. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes.

Michelle Garcia Winner: We're almost surprised that they're not doing well in school, but the whole process never kicked off in terms of being able to just do life skills. And so often we work with very bright clients, and so for whatever when you're bright, what it means is that you've measured really well in one or two aspects of testing, just one or two, not everything, but a lot of times, once someone thinks that someone is bright, they get mad at them for not being bright about everything.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Michelle Garcia Winner: And so, life skills like getting out of bed being I work with families on stop preparing food for your kid like you want them to go to college, make sure that they have all these goals

oriented things about how to get themselves ready for independence, and it's just about breaking things down to build up competencies and appreciate their small abilities, the small steps that it takes, because each step will add to a step that leads you to a bigger goal.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I love that.

Michelle Garcia Winner: But each own unique, tiny goal that needs to be accomplished.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful.  

Michelle Garcia Winner: And need to stop doing so much for our kids. We need to let kids show up as who they actually are because once they graduate from high school, there is no support system out there. There's no IEP team, there's nobody there to make personalized accommodations and nearly the way they've expected. So let's really appreciate who that person is and celebrate who they are, but also be very realistic about what they're struggling with, and not blame others or just say.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful.

Michelle Garcia Winner: Someone else's problem. 

Diane Dempster: Michelle, thank you so much. What a great conversation we could have continued on. I've got three more things I wanted to ask, but we in the sake of time. Elaine, how do we want to just wanna?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Want to say thank you for the work that you're doing. There's so much overlap and so much reinforcement as we're hearing you talk and hearing our models show up in so many pieces. And it's really nice to find a fellow traveler who understands the importance of breaking it down, step by step, and that, our complex kids can have a full activity of day before they even get to school, and that the effort they put in, which is also an executive function skill, is something that we really have to recognize and acknowledge.

So thank you for bringing that out and really thank you for being here. We really appreciate it.

Michelle Garcia Winner: So I wanted to just make sure the audience knows that as much as, Social Thinking, is a for profit company to allow us the freedom to do what we want to do, that we found the only way to do that is for profit. We act as if we have a non-profit heart. So if you go to our website, you will find a lot of free articles. We've been pulling them back and updating language like neurodivergent and all of that, so you have a lot of access for both organization and social ability through free articles. 

I also give free webinars, and we've stored all of those on the website as well. So if you're interested in learning more about different topics, including time management, which we call part of that is time travel, just go to our website and look for webinars. All of those are free as well as the articles. And then see what new information we have coming up. We have some pretty cool new products. One's gonna be a graphic novel for teens.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Awesome.

Michelle Garcia Winner: That will help to support how to teach folks these concepts. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful. I love that we call ourselves a private sector business for the public good. So I love that notion of being a nonprofit, of having a nonprofit heart. We're very much. An online member again, Michelle, thank you for being here, and to all of those who are here listening. Thanks for being part of it. Thanks for tuning in, and we'll catch you in the next conversation. Take care.