Dr. Pamela Ellis
It was a journey that started with becoming a mom, because when I became a mom, I just became obsessed with figuring out schooling for my kids. And a couple of my kids are complex kids. Didn't know it at the time, but certainly I learned it as they got older. And I remember what it was like for myself going through school, and I had a teacher, Elaine, tell me that I wouldn't amount to anything. I just knew that that would also be my kids' story—where they would have someone who may have low expectations of them. And I wanted something different for them. I wanted better for them, like all of us parents. And that led me to going back to Stanford to get my doctorate degree in high school to college transition. That's my life's work. I call it my calling because there's nothing else that I would be doing than what I do today with families.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I love that. And I love that you had the moxie to go back and say, "OK, I'm gonna do this." Credibility. You know, I laugh—I often say that motherhood is the necessity of invention.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
It is.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right?

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Yes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And a lot of us are doing really important work in the world because we had kids who needed somebody to be doing this important work in the world.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Yeah, that is so true. That is so true.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So I can relate. That's a long way from when you had kids to the college time.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
That's a good 18 years.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
It's really been just how oftentimes we as parents are left out of the process. We usually give it over to our school to take care of it, and that was something that's always struck me as a place where I really wanted to make a difference with the families that I worked with. Because even though we're supporting the teen, we're also guiding their parents as well. And as parents, you know, getting ready to see our kid go away from home—that can feel really stressful. And we realize what the investment will be, and oftentimes just feel nervous about that whole prospect of them going away and wondering, how are they gonna be able to, you know, thrive on their own without us?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Well, and I think that's particularly the case when you've got complex kids, right? In our community, our kids are developmentally delayed to some extent, right? So we're doing more for them a little longer than their typical peers.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. And it's just daunting how much the process has changed over the years as well. It's a lot more complex than it used to be. And we have a lot more to figure out given the investment for it. And so I want to make sure that parents still feel armed with the information that they need to support their teen in their journey.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Well. So there are a couple of things that come up for me as a place, you know, that we might go play in this conversation—directions we might go—and maybe we can do some before the break and some after the break.
So, because there's this focus on, if my kid is struggling in school, how are they actually gonna get into college anywhere, right? Or university that's the right fit? So there's that conversation. And then there's this other conversation you're raising, which we talk about a lot in our community, which is, you know, the parenting process of letting go. And what is the role of the parent to be collaborative and engaging without controlling? So which do you think we should talk about first?

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Oh my goodness. We can go with either one first, 'cause I love talking about them both. I would say we can start with finding the right college, because the thing that you said was, when our kids are struggling, we worry about if they're gonna find the right place. And that's where I always like to share with parents that there are dozens of colleges out there that are a great fit for their teen. And it's oftentimes that we know a few colleges locally, or maybe we know brand-name colleges, but we don't often start the process with our kids—we start it with thinking about the colleges.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
We started in our kids.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
And I always say start with the teen. And with starting with the teen, uh, we go through a process where we talk about our five factors of fit. And that's something, you know, that parents can think about in an exercise they can do with their kids, with thinking about these five factors. And so starting with those first. Then looking at colleges and I'll share briefly what they are. So the first factor is academic. So thinking about what it is they may wanna study or what can sup best support their learning. And then second area of fit would be social in terms of how, what are the things they do to make friends and how easy it is for them to make friends. Yeah. Thirdly is the financial fit. So what is it gonna take for college to be affordable for your family? The fourth one is vocational. What things are thinking about doing perhaps after college? And then the fifth one is cultural fit. And so where, what will it, uh, take for them to have a sense of belonging and thinking about their own identity as well? And so when you think about those five factors, that opens it up for dozens of colleges, that can be a great fit.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. So a couple of different things are coming up as I'm hearing you say it. Part of it is I'm kind of reliving that experience with one of my kids in particular who was very anxious about the process. Even though she was, she was actually a great student, she was really anxious and delaying the process and, and so we sat down and we kind of looked at. Unintentionally most of these factors.

Yeah. Like what do you, like One of the things she identified was that she, she didn't care if the school had Greeks, you know, had fraternities or shortage or not, but she didn't want it to be the defining feature of the school.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right. Like, so she, we, you know, we spent some time getting clear on what was important to her and that's kind of what I hear you identifying is to pull it away from the school and really help them identify what are they, what's important to them about where they're gonna live and be for the next four years.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Exactly, exactly. That is what it is. And just having that conversation. To step outta, you know, just thinking about college or what their admissions rate is or anything like that. But what is it that the teen really wants? And sometimes they are clear about articulating that, sometimes not. But when you break it down with those different factors that can help them to at least start to articulate it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and the other thing that comes to me is when I think about when we've got complex kids, very often we have a tendency to shut down what's possible for them because we're afraid they won't be able to be successful in it.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Right, right, right. And that's where letting go comes in.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Which we're gonna get to. But this framework—like, when a kid has, you know... I remember supporting a friend's kid many years ago who wanted to be a veterinarian. Well, I knew the likelihood of this kid actually academically making it all the way through was pretty slim, if I was honest. But that didn't mean I wasn't gonna hold her vision of wanting to be a veterinarian. Right. And support her in that process and help her write her essays to that, 'cause that was her vision. That's what she wanted, and that was compelling her. Mm-hmm. And so there's a piece about helping them see what they want and then helping them believe it's possible.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Absolutely. And that's what, you know, having that conversation around what they want can help them feel confident about the process. And I love what you said in terms of, even if you didn't see the possibility, you wanted to at least help her with seeing that possibility and seeing that, yes, this is achievable.
Because I believe that wholeheartedly. I got a question, Elaine, the other day. A parent was asking me if I would tell a kid that they couldn't apply to a college. And I just thought, no. I mean, I don't even think about doing that. I mean, we definitely talk about, you know, the factors of fit. And sometimes, you know, students might feel like there's a college that they're interested in that really isn't quite a fit for them.
But I'm not gonna tell them no. If they're excited about that college, I'm just like, go for it. And, you know, I still want you to do your research and learn more about them and do a visit as well, but I would never tell them, no, they can't apply. Because the moment you say that, they lose all confidence. They lose all confidence.
And it's the same way when kids feel like they're starting too late, you know, in the process. And it's like, no, you are right on time. You are right on time when you start.
Because you want—Wherever you are, you are right on time, because you want them to have confidence throughout the process. And that confidence prompts everything.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Beautiful. My guest is Dr. Pamela Ellis, and we are talking about helping kids transition from high school to college. And we were just talking about the five factors of fit—of what kids can look for to help them identify and get excited about and feel good about finding the pos—you know, the possibility of finding a good fit for them as a college.

And so I wanna shift the attention to the parents now. Because part of what happens in this process can be: if the kids are really excited but the parents are afraid that the kid might not be successful, that can really impede the process for the kids. And you were just talking about how important confidence is.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Yes. Yes, absolutely. Now, before I talk about that, Elaine, one thing I wanna do is remind your audience how lucky they are to have a great hostess like you.
So I want to remind them to go out and do their five-star review. So I'll see—aw, that does—then I'll get to talking about that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
That's a real podcast guest, everybody. Thank you.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
You're welcome. You're welcome. And so with thinking about just us as parents letting go—that's probably one of the hardest things. And even though we may feel that, oh, that college is gonna be so hard, or they may get rejected, I think that's the biggest fear that we have as parents. We don't wanna see our kids hurt or rejected from anywhere. And what I think is a greater feeling that you don't want them to have is one of regret. And so what we're working towards is: yeah, that may be a challenging school to get into, but if you want to apply there, that is completely fine. That's great. And we're gonna help you with getting there.

And the thing is that when the student is looking at their college options, the feeling you don't want them to have is, "Man, I wish I had. I wish I had applied to X," or "What would've happened if I had applied to Y College?"

Or even worse, they're sitting freshman year in a college feeling like, "You know, I didn't wanna be here. This isn't a place for me. I can't find my people. I wanna go home." You know, we don't want that either.
And so I think that when you're choosing between those feelings, it's—you want them to put themselves out there and be able to take a chance and say, "Hey, I'm gonna give it my best and apply."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So in this audience, in this community, it's all the more true that we have parents who are trying to protect their kids from failure. Because a lot of our kids have had more opportunity and experience with failure than their neurotypical peers.
And so I think one of the things that I've noticed in the last 10–15 years that has surprised me has been how many schools there are out there, and how many options there are, and how many—how many kids that you might have said, This kid has been a straight C/D student, or This kid hasn't scored well, or This kid has had a hard time going to school, which happens a lot in our community. That these kids—their record does not reflect that of a stellar student. And so we think, Well, then they're never gonna get into college.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
And yes, you've said it. There are so many great colleges out there. There are over 3,000. So it's like, there are a lot of them. And I have to share this quick story of a student of mine, John, who hated school. I mean, he just did not like school and he was your typical C student. And the way we looked at the list was a little bit different, in terms of, you know, colleges that actually thrive on students who have potential—and that he did have.

Even if his high school record didn't show it, he had a lot of potential. And it ended up that, with the colleges that he applied to, he was admitted to—I wanna say 12 out of the 14 colleges—and ended up getting over $100,000 in scholarships for the one that he decided to go to. And the other thing about it is, he did decide to do a gap year program. And that was the time to really give him time away from family, on his own, to mature, to develop as a young person. And he started college the year after. And the great thing about it is the college said, "We'll hold the money until you come next year."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
But he still did apply in his senior year, and then he took the gap year. And that typically, folks, that's what happens—you're gonna have a better attrition rate if you actually get the kids through the process while they're still in the high school environment.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Absolutely. Absolutely. And I have a number of students every year who are interested in gap year programs, and I want them to still apply in senior year also, so that they have the confidence that yes, they can do it. And then the gap year applications aren't till winter anyway.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So we've talked—you've used the word confidence a lot. We've talked about seeing their capacity, their potential, and what's really jumping at me—we did a podcast interview with a man named Andreas Kraft, who is a futurist. And he has done a lot of research on hope.

And part of what he shared is the research that affirms how important it is to our kids for us to believe in what's possible for them—to see, to share a vision of what we think is going to happen instead of what's not gonna happen.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Right. Right. That is so important, and I just feel like we can't always know it. I think that, you know, as parents, we come with our own history and background, and maybe it's something that we would've never done. And we, like you said, also may see the times that they have struggled in certain areas. And so we feel like, man, how could they possibly do this? But when we do believe in them, I mean, it's amazing to see how they can actually step up and surpass what we even believe.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and if we don't believe in them, man, that makes it harder for them to believe in themselves.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
It really does. Yeah. Absolutely does. And I, you know, have definitely witnessed that, because in our program, when we're working with students, we always say the student owns the process, and we're coaching and guiding, and we want parents to trust that process as well—that their kid can actually step up.
And it's, it's a small thing, Elaine, like even, you know, having them schedule their own meeting. And some parents will say, No, I keep their schedule, and I'm thinking, If you are traveling, doing all these things—keeping their schedule is even more work for you. And if they could use their school calendar, use their phone to see when something is available, they could say, Yeah, I can meet on this date. And that really empowers them.

Because kids know when their parents are doing everything for them. Yeah. And they will feel bad about saying that they did something when they know they didn't. And so if we can just give them that and show that we trust them...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, so, and I hear a lot of parents hearing you going, Yeah, but... Right? And in our community we get a lot of that, and so we do a lot of work around moving from director to collaborator—from collaborator to coach-approach.
And so what I wanna say to the parents who are listening in our community is that to begin to collaborate with your kid and enroll them in the process doesn't mean that it's all or nothing. You're not just throwing up your hands and saying, OK, it's all you.
You can still support them in doing the scheduling. But I think what Dr. Pamela is saying is, let's bring them into the process. Let's give them the ownership and the buy-in so that they feel like it's their process that we're supporting them through, instead of setting expectations for them and having them feel like they're kind of out of the loop.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Right. Right. And I had this student, Elaine—it was in senior year—and we were working on the applications together, and he needed to send his test scores. And I was like, Log in to College Board and submit your test scores. He was just like, My dad has the account 'cause he signed up for me. And just the look on his face... and I think he felt bad even admitting to that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
That he couldn't—he didn't have the autonomy to do it.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Yeah. And I mean, I just kind of felt hurt for him in that sense. And like you said, it doesn't mean doing it all. And maybe it's, you know, as part of being a collaborator, it's sitting down with them and letting them RSVP for the campus visit. Because in that RSVP for the campus visit, it asks them questions about what they're interested in, and we don't wanna assume that we already know that. And then the other side of that is that sometimes when they're registering for that, that becomes their login for their application.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Exactly.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
That means that anytime they need to log in, they need to, you know, contact us to do it. And, you know, we want them to feel empowered, and I'd say feel that we trust them. Yeah. Own their process and be able to make good decisions about their use of, you know, whatever account they have. They're not gonna go in and start setting a lot of SAT dates and charging 'em to our card, you know? So letting them have their own account.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Love that. So, so we need to start wrapping the conversation. I have another question I wanna come back to, but let me just remind everybody: our guest is Dr. Pamela Ellis, and you can find out more about her. We'll have her LinkedIn profile in the show notes, as well as you can find her at compasscollegeadvisory.com.

So, if you want more resources, she's there and stewarding young people—including complex young people—through the process.
As we come back, I wanna ask, is there anything we didn't talk about? Usually that's my final question, but I do wanna pose something to you actually.
What I used to do to my kids—and what I have guided parents through many times—is to start the process with what I call a Look and See tour. So sometimes it can be really valuable when you've got kids who are stressed out by the process or have some anxiety, to take them to a school you know they are not likely to apply to. To take 'em to a few different schools. Like I would do it when we would travel to a different part of the country.

And so that they could see: What does a city school look like? What's an urban school? What's a small campus? What's a big campus look like? But not necessarily the one that they're going to or that they're likely to go to—you know, you live in a certain state, for example—but to one, just so that they can get the sense of the kind of school without getting caught up.

'Cause you were saying at the beginning, don't start with the school. So I'm curious your take on that—of giving them an opportunity, 'cause a lot of these kids have never even been on a college campus.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Yeah. I think about that in a couple of different ways, Elaine. Yes, it's OK to visit colleges when they're younger. What I really implore parents to do though is to go to a college that maybe they haven't heard of either, but has a, you know, an urban feel to it. And so let's say it could be a college like Goucher, you know, or a college like Catholic University in D.C.—and that's the college. You know, both of those have higher admissions rates. And also, you know, there are some colleges that are rural that have a pretty good higher admissions rate. Because the thing that often happens for us is we'll go to an Ivy League college, and that will then set their expectation. I mean, even if we're doing it just for the sake of doing it, in kids' minds, that kind of sets their expectation for this is the bar.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I had a student. It did not mean—just to be clear—I did not. Ivy League at all. I was kind of going the opposite direction.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
OK. Yeah. So I'm going in the opposite direction too. I had a student who started with us when she was in 9th grade, and when she started with us, Elaine, she had already visited 30 colleges. Oh my goodness. And most of them—she had visited all the Ivy Leagues, all the selective colleges. And by the time we got to junior year, she was burned out on visiting colleges. She just did not want to visit any more colleges.
And that's when it really matters, you know? Because seeing those colleges back then—she's not gonna remember them, for the most part. And she really needed to see them in junior year.

But the thing about it is, with the list, it sent a message to her that those were the only colleges that were worth applying to because those were the only ones she had visited: the most selective colleges. And so that's what I caution against 100%. Because I think too, when we're visiting a lot of colleges before they get into the process, we're sending a message to them one way or the other that these are the colleges for you. And because that's the way kids will see it. And then, when it's time to even think about themselves first, that may be a little bit harder to do. 'Cause it's just like, "Well, I know this college and that college," but it's like, no. What about you?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and it's so funny because that was the mechanism I used to get to those questions. Because I took her to a college on the other side of the country. It was one she knew she wasn't applying to—we all knew.
But she could walk around and say, "Oh, I like the feel of a campus like this," or, "I like a campus," or, "I don't really care about a campus," or those kinds of...
Anyway, I love, I love your framing of it. We do need to wrap this conversation. Is there anything we haven't spoken about that you wanna make sure you highlight before we close?

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Well, I'd like to share a gift with your listeners, and that is the College Confidence Blueprint. OK. And they can send me "Blueprint 25" on LinkedIn. And it's a roadmap for each year of high school and also a communication guide—because oftentimes, it's: how do you have the conversation with your kid about college and talk about it in a way that they feel heard? And so that's what the blueprint includes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. Pamela, thank you. I appreciate what you're doing. I love your passion and engagement in it, and I know it's really important work.
And thank you for bringing your passion to our community. We really appreciate it.

Dr. Pamela Ellis
Thank you so much, Elaine.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, my pleasure. And I forgot to ask you one last question. Do you have a favorite quote or motto that you wanna share?

Dr. Pamela Ellis
I do have a favorite quote.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
What is it?

Dr. Pamela Ellis
I learned this quote when I was in 3rd grade from my teacher. It is: "A smile is contagious," and I've been smiling ever since. It works. It actually works.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
You do have a beautiful smile. I love that. Thank you.
All right. Those of you catching us on YouTube, you'll know what I mean.
All right, my friends. Thank you, Dr. Pamela. Thank you guys for tuning in and listening and getting a sense of thinking about what this process might be for you and for your kids.

Take a minute to ask yourself: What's your insight from this conversation? What are you taking away from this conversation? And what do you wanna do with it?
How do you wanna apply it? Maybe there's a particular conversation you wanna have with your kids. Maybe there's a little exploration you wanna do for yourself to figure out how to keep yourself letting go in the process.

Wherever you are, there's a lot of great resources. I suspect Dr. Pamela has a lot of resources. We have a bunch on the website on Impact Parents in terms of articles about how to think about this time of year—what are you taking away, and how do you wanna apply it to yourself and your family? As always, my friends, thanks for what you're doing for yourself and for your family. You and your role in this process make an extraordinary difference. Take care, everybody. Have a great day.