Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Hello, everybody! We’re so excited for today’s conversation. We’re kicking things off today with virtual conversations for the summit. Full disclosure, I’m not sure where this will air during the day, but this is our first recording for the Parenting ADHD Now Summer Summit.

We’re really excited to begin with Nicola Reekie. Welcome, Nicola. It’s great to have you.

Nicola Reekie: Thank you so much, Elaine and Diane. I’m really excited to be with you both and to talk a little bit more about pathological demand avoidance (PDA).

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right? A lot of people might not know what that’s about. So, Diane, is there anything we need to cover?

Since this is our first recording, we’ll be sharing additional information so everyone will know what’s happening during the summit. Is there anything else you think we should mention?

Diane Dempster: No, but we’ll make sure you get more details. You’ll find information about Nicola and her work in the bio wherever you’re joining us from, whether it’s Zoom or elsewhere.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Great! Let’s dive in and have a fantastic conversation. Shall we?

Nicola Reekie: Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Excellent! To start with, I’ll provide a bit of an introduction. We’ve invited Nicola Reekie today because, in the virtual world, there’s this term, for lack of a better word, called PDA, which stands for pathological demand avoidance. It originated from autism research in the UK about 20 years ago.

PDA isn’t an official diagnosis—it’s actually a presentation of autism. In other words, it’s a subset of autism. It’s characterized by a tendency, particularly in kids and adults, to resist demands or expectations to the point where it interferes with daily life, making things quite complicated. This presentation is referred to as PDA.

I’ve been following this for years. For those of you in the US, PDA isn’t yet an official diagnosis here. However, there are now about half a dozen providers in the US who recognize it and are starting to diagnose it. It’s not in the DSM yet, but it’s recognized in the UK and Australia. We’ve addressed it in some of our podcast episodes and have been working to raise awareness.

I’ve been trying to address PDA for years, especially after identifying it in one of my own children. We’ve been encouraging many of our clients and community members to seek re-evaluation when we notice these patterns. But about five years ago, this dynamic woman, Nicola Reekie, came onto the scene in a public way—around the time of the pandemic, or maybe just before it.

Nicola Reekie: During it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And she began supporting parents specifically with their PDA journey, whether the parents themselves had it or their children did. She's based in the UK, and for five years, she has been organizing an annual summit to help parents and providers understand how to best support individuals with PDA. As you can imagine, it's very challenging to support someone whose default response is to resist any form of support, right?

She has a background as a young woman diagnosed with dyslexia and dyspraxia, and she didn’t even receive her adult diagnosis until after she had been doing this work for a few years. I’m sure she’ll tell us about that. She’s also trained as a neuro-linguistic coach and a reflexologist, but I know her as the PDA guru. She has created a space for PDA and does incredible work educating people about it. It’s truly a pleasure to have you here with us.

Nicola, welcome, and thank you for the work you’re doing in the world and for sharing your expertise with our community. One more thing I want to mention in the way of introduction: I know this is an ADHD summit, and we’re all aware that many kids with ADHD also have autism, and vice versa. The correlation between the two is very high.

I often say that if you have a child with ADHD, you might often end up with an ODD diagnosis. If the child has autism, you might get a PDA presentation. The manifestation is similar—both involve control and resistance to expectations and demands. So, Nicola, welcome. Thank you again, and let’s begin by having you introduce yourself and explain what led you to do this important work.

Nicola Reekie: I’m blushing from your kind words. Yes, I’ll explain why I set up the PDA Space and created the first summit in the summer of 2020. Just to clarify, in the UK, PDA is recognized as a profile of autism.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: A profile, right?

Nicola Reekie: Yes, and I appreciate that different countries have different terminologies and there are varying issues within the UK as well. I’m based in Wales, where our National Health Service (NHS) does not always acknowledge PDA as a diagnosis.

Some families have to say that the young person or adult is autistic with a demand-avoidant profile. My approach is to say, "When people say PDA doesn’t exist, let's focus on the behaviors, the characteristics, and what we’re actually seeing, because that exists."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Nicola Reekie: Let’s not get bogged down by the terminology; let’s focus on how we can create support and understanding. I got into this work because we were trying to get a diagnosis for my eldest son, who is now 16. We were repeatedly told he wasn’t autistic—just that he was really anxious.

Given the circumstances of our family life—I'm originally from London, but we moved to Wales because my husband got a new job there—there were many factors we could point to and say, "Maybe it’s that." But after a year or 18 months of settling into Wales, we realized that the issues were still happening. We couldn’t keep saying, "It’s this, and this." We felt like we were constantly walking on eggshells.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes.

Nicola Reekie: I remember giving my son a biscuit bar, and it was broken, and the sensory overwhelm he felt. I was so confused—thinking, “What? Why? How?” Fast forward a bit, and when my son was nine, I had a conversation with a very good friend in London. We had gone home to see friends and family before Christmas, and I shared a scenario with her. She said, "You might want to look up PDA."

My brain was so overwhelmed at that point. I was so tired and exhausted that I typed the letters into a text to myself, thinking, "I’m going to forget this." I now think that was a bit crazy, but at the time, I was just trying to make sure I didn’t forget.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Are you kidding? I do that all the time. I just have to tell you—constantly.

Nicola Reekie: I’m sitting here with a fiddle toy because of my ADHD and autism, and I will be swiveling. Ten days later, on a particularly emotional day, we went to a local town, and it was the first time I truly realized that the behavior wasn’t about control—that something much bigger was happening. We got home, it was the Christmas period, and here in the UK, we have about two weeks of festivities.

That’s when I Googled PDA. This was about seven or eight years ago, and there wasn’t much information back then. I’ll never forget the shivers down my arms as I read the description. It was such a lightbulb moment. I grabbed my husband and said, “Can I read this to you? They’re talking about exactly what we’ve been going through.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Nicola Reekie: I feel quite privileged because, being someone who lived in London, there was some training a couple of months later, and I was able to attend a day's training. I just remember crying throughout the entire training because of the validation.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes.

Nicola Reekie: I was with other family members who had experienced similar situations of feeling like "It's you, it's not you," and "You just need to be tougher."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes.

Nicola Reekie: I was told, "You need to set tighter boundaries," and "You need to remove it," whether it was tech or whatever it was at the time that needed to be dealt with. I sat there just crying. When I got back, I truly believe that it wasn’t just a coincidence.

My husband had to go back to London for some training, and the same course was held the Monday after. His course was from Monday to Friday, and he did the training. This meant that we were able to support each other and remind each other of the strategies. We'd joke about it—sometimes, it was a bit of a demand.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So, can I interrupt for a moment? I want to use our time effectively.

Nicola Reekie: Yeah, okay.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Let’s take a step back and explain to people what this is—whether you call it an avoidant-demand-avoidant profile or its own diagnosis.

Nicola Reekie: Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Pathological demand avoidance. How would you define it succinctly?

Nicola Reekie: The key features are that it involves resisting and avoiding the ordinary demands of life. It often includes using social strategies to avoid those demands. The person may appear sociable but may lack a deeper understanding and focus more on people, whereas typically, with autism, the focus might be on things—like cars, trains, or objects. There's also the experience of excessive mood swings and impulsivity, which I now see more as a survival mechanism tied to the need to feel safe.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Nicola Reekie: By doing the course, everything I’ve done has changed my parenting by 360 degrees and transformed my language. I’ve sat there thinking, "How do I ask them?" When they’re small, you can play games like, "Are you going to put your shoes on here or here?" Or, "I’m going to have my food and sit here. Do you want to join me?"

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Before we dive into solutions, let's step back a little and understand it in more detail.

Nicola Reekie: Of course.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Diane, I’d like you to jump in and clarify anything you need because you’re not as familiar with this. I think it’ll be helpful. But let me start with what I heard you say: resisting the normal and avoiding life’s demands. There was something else you mentioned that I missed—the second thing.

Nicola Reekie: Using social strategies as part of avoidance.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What does that mean?

Nicola Reekie: Using social strategies means employing everyday things or stories to avoid tasks. For example, I’ve heard, “No, I can’t take my plate to the dishwasher. My arms don’t work.” Or, “No, I can’t go to the park. My legs don’t work anymore.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay.

Nicola Reekie: When we were discussing social strategies, particularly when seeking an autism diagnosis, I often described my home as feeling like a circus.

If we were trying to get out the door, it was like being caught in a whirlwind. I’d never call it "naughty," but it felt like I was constantly firefighting—trying to catch everything, over and over.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Like trying to catch the wind, right? That’s such a vivid way to put it. Okay, let me go through a few points, and then, Diane, please jump in if you’d like to clarify.

Using social strategies can sometimes be a form of avoidance. It often involves focusing on social interactions but without a deeper understanding of social dynamics. It tends to focus more on people than on objects like trains or cars. And then there are impulsive mood swings, which often stem from a deep need to feel safe.

Nicola Reekie: Yeah, absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Those were the main takeaways for me when I first learned about this, and that was 13 or 14 years ago. There was also something about the tendency to get absorbed in stories—really immersing oneself in storytelling or imaginative play.

Nicola Reekie: Yes, exactly.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Could you elaborate on that?

Nicola Reekie: Sure.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Because that part really resonated with me—it even brought me to tears.

Nicola Reekie: Role-playing is a key aspect, though it can manifest very differently. For example, it might appear in gaming, where someone gets deeply involved in a character.

We also see this within the autistic community, especially among young people, where they might pretend to be a specific animal, like a cat or a dog, to the extent that they truly believe it. For instance, they might say, “I can’t get ready for bed because I’m a dog, and dogs don’t sleep in beds.”

Interestingly, I’ve also spoken with adult PDAs (Pathological Demand Avoidance profiles) who use role-play to help themselves complete mundane tasks. One person, for example, shared that she pretended to be a 1960s housemaid by wearing an old-fashioned apron, which made cleaning feel more manageable.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I love that!

Nicola Reekie: It’s such a creative way to cope.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Diane has probably heard me tell my “superheroes at the grocery store” story a million times, but that’s a great example of the same concept. Diane, what’s coming up for you? Any thoughts or questions?

Diane Dempster: Yes, I’ve been thinking about this a lot. I work with a few clients whose children have PDA, and many parents listening to this are struggling with kids who push back—whether they have ADHD, autism, or anxiety.

When something like a diagnosis, a trait, or even just a behavior pattern comes up, parents often want to figure out, Does my child fit into this category? And if they do, What should I do? Should I change how I approach things? Should I consult a doctor?

It’s a natural response to want clarity, but as you’ve been describing, this is all part of a continuum. The real question is: How important is it to define whether my child is a PDA kid, or if they’re just struggling with control or feeling unsafe?

I think it would be helpful to explore the role of a diagnosis—what difference does it make, and when does it matter? Elaine, maybe we could dive into that?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Let’s say that.

Diane Dempster: People are wondering, Does my child have PDA or not? The truth is, these are behaviors we’re talking about. Regardless of whether your child has a formal diagnosis, many of the strategies for supporting these behaviors apply. Would you agree?

Nicola Reekie: Absolutely. Personally, I’ve had this conversation with quite a few people recently. I believe that PDA strategies are beneficial for all children because they focus on connection, collaboration, and working with our young people.

For example, Dr. Ross Greene talks about Plan B, which emphasizes collaboration and connection. It’s about identifying the skills a child may lack and figuring out how to support them. Whether they are autistic, have PDA, or something else, scaffolding and meeting them where they are is key.

To share an example: I don’t know if you call it high school where you are—we might use different terms—but when my son started high school at 11, I used to pack his bag with all the books he needed. I did that for him up until he was 13 or 14. Then one day, he just started doing it himself.

If I mentioned this to other families, some might react by saying, What? Don’t you make him do it? Others might ask, But when will he learn? Here’s what I’ve observed: the more I let go, the more my kids develop these skills.

My eldest can now cook, empty the dishwasher, use the washing machine—things I’ve modeled for him over time. If we try to do everything for them, they won’t learn. But when life is calm—and I emphasize the word calm—he’s capable of doing these things.

For anyone listening who’s thinking, But they have to learn! Consider this: if I told you right now to create a new program for a website without prior experience, you might freeze. Most people would, because they wouldn’t know how to start. That’s how it feels for our kids. There’s growing research about the importance of a sense of safety for them to function and learn.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Nicola Reekie: Exactly. I’ve experienced this myself. For example, when I hosted a summit and got bombarded with too many tasks at once, my brain just froze. If that’s how I feel as an adult, why do we expect our kids to handle similar challenges effortlessly?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s such a great point. There’s a word that’s come up several times here that I want to focus on: control. As someone who identifies as neurodivergent, I know that my brain often feels out of control. I’ve developed strategies to help myself feel more in control.

My story is similar to yours, Nicola, but my child was significantly older. When I discovered PDA, my kid was 16. When I read about the characteristics, it was like a lightbulb moment. My kid is an actor, so traits like pretend play, role-playing, and gaming were very familiar. Those skills made them an excellent actor.

When I shared what I’d learned with them, we both cried. It was this incredible moment of realization: Oh my god, Mom, that’s me! And I said, Yes, it is.

I remember meeting another parent at a conference who also had a child with PDA. Before that, I hadn’t spoken to anyone about it. For us, the way we frame it is not about not wanting to be controlled but wanting to feel in control.

You mentioned earlier that it’s not about control. Can we dive deeper into what control means for people with PDA?

Nicola Reekie: Yeah, I mean, it's difficult. From my learnings and conversations with adults with PDA, as well as some of the research, I think when we frame the concept of "control," it often comes across as if it's a choice. And I think this is where language becomes really important because, as parents, if we believe they have a choice in how they're behaving, it affects how we respond.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay.

Nicola Reekie: And if you look at my mug—it says, "Can't, not won't."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes.

Nicola Reekie: It might not show properly here, but the more we focus on how we can support our young people or adults—helping them feel safe—the better. When we, you, me, and Diane, feel safe, we're able to flourish and thrive. It’s no different for individuals with PDA.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. And the language we use is crucial—are they being "naughty" or is it neurological?

Nicola Reekie: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. To help parents understand, this behavior isn't about being naughty. It’s not that they won’t do something—it’s that they can’t right now.

Nicola Reekie: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That doesn’t mean they’ll never be able to, as you were saying earlier, but at this moment, they just can’t.

Nicola Reekie: Yeah, and they often have to choose. For example, my 16-year-old is going through exams right now—big ones. In my opinion, far too many. He's sitting 20 GCSE exams across eight subjects. It’s early days, but he’s doing them because he’s driven to. That drive is where we’ve spoken before about the pervasive desire for autonomy. For some individuals with PDA, that drive can help them engage—if it’s strong enough, they’ll go with the flow.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Although I will say, I’ve heard my child—and seen things on social media—say that sometimes they even resist their own demands.

Nicola Reekie: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: The greatest frustration is when they’ve decided they want to do something but then resist their own intentions. It’s really complicated.

Nicola Reekie: It absolutely is. Thank you for bringing that up, because yes, it’s so true. I was going to share a personal example, but Julia Dorn, who has spoken at every summit I’ve hosted, explains this perfectly. She’s said she can even avoid things she really enjoys. And that’s one of the most frustrating aspects of PDA. She loves crafting, but sometimes, even that becomes just one too many demands.

Let me share a story, as I think many families will relate to this. When my son was younger, we went to a gaming café—I don’t know if you have them there—with all the different Xbox setups and such. He’d been there before, and he was going with someone he liked. I thought, “This will be great.”

But I got completely thrown because he couldn’t go. I hadn’t done the necessary prep work to give him enough time to process. He did end up going, but we were late. It’s not something I usually allow to happen now. It caught me off guard because it ticked all the right boxes: he liked the activity, he liked the friend he was meeting, and he’d been there before.

And yet, that internal demand was just too much.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And you just said something that really resonated with me. I’ve been doing this work for a long time, and what I discovered is that the coaching approach works particularly well for kids with PDA. It’s all about fostering a sense of agency, empowerment, and collaboration—all the things you’ve been talking about.

And, honestly, I kind of fell into it backward. I didn’t realize at first why it was working, but it was. I just had this realization now, though: one of the things that really worked with our kids in the mornings was when they asked me for extra time. We were trying to make mornings smoother, and they came to me and said, “We don’t like to rush. We need to get up earlier.”

And I thought, “You don’t want to get up earlier! You guys hate getting up early!” But they explained, “No, we need the time to piddle around in the morning so we can get to school calmly.”

I didn’t make the connection until you just said that they need the extra time to feel calm, to have that sense of agency and control. Is that what I just heard you say?

Nicola Reekie: Yeah, absolutely.

Diane Dempster: Love that. And what I’m hearing underneath it, to summarize a bit, is that we’re really talking about managing transitions. What you’re describing is helping a child do something they want to do or enjoy, but you’re figuring out how to meet them where they are.

Instead of trying to pull them from one state to another, you’re meeting them where they are and asking, “How do I walk you through this process?” It could be getting into something they want to do, something we’ve decided is the next step, or something important to accomplish. But it’s more collaborative—it fosters their sense of self-agency.

Nicola Reekie: Definitely. And I want to emphasize something I touched on earlier. Just because someone could do something yesterday doesn’t mean they can do it today or tomorrow. That’s a hallmark of being neurodivergent—full stop.

For anyone listening, I know some people use the term "spiky profile," but I’m not a big fan of that phrase. It’s more about diversity. Progress isn’t always linear—someone might be able to do something in a month but not consistently day-to-day. It’s important to let go of thinking, “Well, Johnny did it yesterday, so he should be able to do it today.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. Expectations and demands aren’t that far apart, right? We may think, “This is what we expect of you,” but the child experiences it as, “This is being demanded of me.” That distinction is key.

If we understand how to set appropriate and reasonable expectations, meeting them where they are—as both you and we say—then we can guide them toward greater success in their lives.

Diane Dempster: And to simplify it even more, what I’m hearing is that anything perceived as a demand creates a sense of insecurity.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: A lack of safety.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. And when we don’t feel safe, we go into fight, flight, freeze, or fawn. You’re essentially witnessing the “animal brain” in your child’s body—or even in yourself—shutting down because it feels, “I can’t handle this situation.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s exactly what it feels like, isn’t it?

Nicola Reekie: Absolutely. And I firmly believe that in 90% of families with a neurodivergent child, there’s likely a neurodivergent parent somewhere, too.

The dynamic disability was the word I was struggling to grab the joys of my dyslexia, where I can forget words I want to use.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: But the syllables—gotcha. I’m with you.

Nicola Reekie: And I think focusing on what our young person or child needs and wants makes things so much simpler. When we can really let go, that’s when the magic happens. That’s why you all are doing such an amazing job working with families—because, for me, that is the work.

The more we step away from behaviorist approaches—where we assume the child, adult, or whoever is wrong and needs to be “fixed”—the more we realize it’s about changing our mindset, our expectations, and what we believe is non-negotiable. It’s not about having a long list of non-negotiables; it’s about having just a few, which are thoughtfully discussed. I didn’t just tell you my non-negotiables; we’ve talked about them before.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Nicola Reekie: We’ve been having those discussions all along.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. So, we need to wrap up this conversation.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, we could talk forever!

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Absolutely. It’s such a pleasure to share this space with someone who truly understands. When you’re a parent dealing with these challenges, you can often feel judged or made to feel like you’re doing something wrong. So, it’s been an absolute pleasure.

Thank you for being here and for the incredible work you’re doing. Diane, do you want to ask Nicola the next question?

Diane Dempster: Sure! Nicola, can you tell us how people can find out more about you?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Is that right?

Diane Dempster: Yes, let’s go with that.

Nicola Reekie: Thank you, ladies. I have a website called The PDA Space.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We’ll include the links below.

Nicola Reekie: Thank you. The logo is a tree because I believe we need strong roots, energy, and growth to blossom outward. At The PDA Space, I support families with a summit, a membership program, and lots of free resources, like blogs and eBooks.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And you’ve got a free gift for the audience, right?

Nicola Reekie: Yes!

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Go ahead.

Nicola Reekie: There’s a webinar available. It’s designed to provide an introduction to PDA, explain the basics of support, and guide families through the initial steps.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s fantastic.

Diane Dempster: Thank you so much for that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Is there anything else?

Diane Dempster: I think we’re good. But before we wrap up, Nicola, is there something brief that we haven’t covered yet that you’d like to add?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Maybe something you’d like to emphasize or highlight?

Nicola Reekie: I think, for families struggling with behavior, the key is to step back. As you said, transitions are everywhere—everything is a transition. Even wrapping up this conversation is a transition.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Absolutely.

Nicola Reekie: And it’s important to remember: it’s not that they won’t; it’s that they can’t.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful.

Nicola Reekie: We’re all doing the best we can with the tools we have.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. That’s beautiful. Nicola, thank you for the incredible work you’re doing with The PDA Space and for joining us today. To our listeners, we’re going to let Nicola head off, and we’ll take a moment to debrief this wonderful conversation before our next break.

Diane Dempster: Thanks, Nicola. Before you go, do you have a favorite quote or motto you’d like to share with our audience?

Nicola Reekie: Yes! One of my favorites is: I don’t make mistakes—they’re just learning moments.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Beautiful.

Diane Dempster: I love that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I love love love that in the coaching world, we call it failing forward. I don't make mistakes. They're just learning moments. 

Nicola Reekie: Yeah, and I hope it gives families that sense of compassion.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes. I think so much of what anyone listening is doing stems from compassion, doesn’t it?

Nicola Reekie: Anyone who has chosen to join and listen to your summit is doing so much already.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Nicola Reekie: Still, they might be the hardest on themselves. We need to remember that we don’t have to be perfect or avoid mistakes. Just finding those moments to appreciate how hard we’re all working is so important.

Diane Dempster: It’s funny you mention that. This morning, in our Facebook group, a mom was sharing everything she’s doing and then said, ‘I still feel like a bad mom.’ I was like, “Wait, you’re doing all these amazing things! How can you feel that way?”

You’re doing incredible things. I mean, I don’t want to tell you how to feel, but you’re not a bad mom.

Nicola Reekie: Absolutely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It’s never enough, is it? We set such high expectations for ourselves because we care so much about our kids. And that’s okay.

Friends, this has been such a great conversation. Nicola, I hope this is just the start of many more discussions with you. It’s been a pleasure to get to know you, and I’m looking forward to more.

To everyone listening, take a moment to ask yourself: What am I taking away from this conversation? What’s one insight I can carry forward into my life?

Diane Dempster: And thank you for all that you do—for yourself and for your kids. At the end of the day, you make the difference. Take care, everyone.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That was amazing. I really needed this conversation. You know, I wish I could express how much this resonated with me.

Remember when Nicola talked about kids taking on characters? It reminded me of my eldest child when they were about three. They became Dorothy from The Wizard of Oz for about two years. They dressed the part every day—I was Auntie Em, and David was Uncle Henry.

When their younger sibling was born, she became the Mayor of Munchkin City. We had all different sizes of ruby red shoes, thanks to Target. We thought it was just creative play, but looking back, it was such an expression of something deeper. For two years, they role-played Dorothy.

Diane Dempster: That’s such a powerful example. And bringing it back to our earlier discussion about safety, it’s almost as if, in those moments, kids don’t quite feel safe being themselves, so they create these imaginary worlds.

There are two key things I want to highlight here. First, the incredible creativity and resilience kids show. Second, Elaine, your example underscores why so many people end up in communities like ours. Even with all your professional experience, having someone witness and validate what you saw in your child is so meaningful.

That’s why we’re here—because we all feel alone sometimes. We think we’re the only ones going through these struggles. But there’s such power in realizing: It’s not just me. I’m not a bad parent. My kid isn’t broken. They’re struggling, and that makes sense. And there are things I can do to help shift the dynamic for my family.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Absolutely. Hearing you say that brought up so much for me. I was listening to your story with two perspectives—one as the parent of a 4-year-old and 16-year-old at the time, and the other as the parent of someone who is now almost 30.

Part of me was reflecting on what served them then and what continues to support them now.

Diane Dempster: As an adult kid? Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes. Something else became clear to me as I was thinking about the persona they took on. This child is trans, non-binary, and I think that as a two- or three-year-old, being a girl felt hard. So, they became Dorothy—a classic, healthy expression of someone who was lost in another world.

Looking back now, I feel like I could do a full literary analysis of that choice. It’s fascinating to reflect on, but I really think that’s what was happening.

One other thing I wanted to share in this conversation is a story I’ve referenced before—some of you might have heard me talk about “superheroes to the grocery store.” It’s a story we use to illustrate motivation—how people find ways to activate themselves to do hard things.

If you’ve attended Sanity School, group coaching, or Sanity School Premium, you’ve probably learned about this concept at some point.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: The story goes like this: I needed my kids to go to the grocery store, but they didn’t want to. We had just experienced a death in the family, and everyone was feeling low. My eldest, though, knew we needed to do it.

So finally, they looked at their siblings and said, “Okay, everybody—superheroes to the grocery store!” They all put on capes, tights, and shorts. It was adorable. But more importantly, it’s what they needed to get themselves motivated to do something hard.

Diane Dempster: Right. Whether they need motivation or a sense of safety.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly.

Diane Dempster: And as parents, it’s important to pause and ask ourselves: What might be going on for our kids right now? So often, what we witness in our kids are what I’d call avoidance behaviors. It’s not about laziness or defiance—it’s about being overwhelmed and shutting down.

I personally react to being overwhelmed by diving into action and getting things done—that’s my response. But for many kids, their response is to shut down.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Or to push back and try to take control.

Nicola Reekie: Or to avoid completely.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. These are all forms of avoidance, as you’re saying, and I love how you framed it. Kids might get angry or lash out—those are avoidance behaviors, too. So, what else could they do?

Diane Dempster: Well, every child expresses this differently. And while we’re not just talking about Pathological Demand Avoidance (PDA) here, these behaviors are common in kids experiencing overwhelm or avoidance.

I love the idea that any unwanted behavior is really a signal.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Or a symptom.

Diane Dempster: Yes, a signal or symptom—whatever we call it, it’s a message. Instead of viewing the behavior as simply “not okay,” we can look at it as an indication that something deeper is happening.

So, let’s imagine for a moment that this child is avoiding something. Rather than asking, “Why are they avoiding this?” let’s consider: What might be making this so hard for them?

It’s not just about forcing kids to push through their avoidance. Sometimes, they need us to help them feel safe or less overwhelmed before they can engage with whatever task or situation they’re facing.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, so I think what I was trying to convey—and I think you just touched on it—is that when certain behaviors are exhibited, whether by our kids, our partners, or whomever—like shutting down, controlling, angry redirection—all of those can be forms of avoidance, right? Avoidance isn’t always the obvious stuff.

Sometimes, if I can redirect, change the subject, or shift attention to something else... I think back to years of arguments with my husband where we’d start talking about one thing, and suddenly, we’re arguing about how we’re arguing, or about the way we’re discussing it, instead of addressing the actual issue.

That’s a form of avoidance, right? It means I don’t have to talk about the hard thing. Now, instead of discussing the real issue—like “I really want you to close the toilet seat”—I’m talking about how I didn’t like the tone you used with me.

Diane Dempster: You guys fought about that?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: No, that’s why I used it as an example—it’s very mundane. But recognizing when avoidance is happening is what I’m trying to emphasize.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right? We might see the behavior and miss the fact that avoidance is underneath it because something feels uncomfortable.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. And I think even the language we use is important. During that interview, we talked about terms like “control” and “avoidance.” We often frame avoidance as a negative thing, but really, avoidance is a natural response to feeling unsafe or unable to engage.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: It’s like, “Oh, my kid’s just avoiding their homework.” Well, maybe they aren’t regulated enough to focus on it. That’s a very different way of understanding the situation.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. Or maybe they don’t feel safe, confident, or competent. Or maybe they’re perfectionists, afraid they’ll do it wrong. My kid used to say, “Don’t you see? If I don’t do it, I can’t do it wrong.”

Diane Dempster: Right. All of that points to their emotional state taking over. When they’re too flooded with emotions, they can’t access their thinking brain. “Flooded” might be a good word for that experience.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I want to quickly mention PDA, which Nicola referenced but we didn’t really explain. PDA stands for “Pathological Demand Avoidance”—a term I find really harsh, even worse than “ADHD.” And that’s saying something! We do have a link in the reading carousel to a workbook on PDA, so I’ll make sure those resources are accessible.

But there’s been a movement within the community, as Nicola mentioned, to adopt more empowering language. For instance, some people prefer terms like “Pervasive Desire for Agency” or “Persistent Desire for Autonomy.” These terms reflect a shift driven by the autistic community to reclaim language and make it more meaningful and affirming.

Diane Dempster: That’s powerful.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It is. It’s so much more empowering. I think we see this happening in the autism community more than in the ADHD community. It’s this movement of saying, “I’m going to stop masking and conforming to you. Instead, I want you to come to me.”

By reframing PDA as a “desire for autonomy,” it emphasizes the importance of agency. It’s about saying, “This matters to me, and I’m sharing it so you can understand.” Recognizing that these terms all describe the same phenomenon from different perspectives is key.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, awesome. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Anything else? 

Diane Dempster: No, I think I’m just excited to see what the next interview brings!

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, me too. I hope you all enjoyed this one! Just a quick reminder for everyone listening, whether you’re tuning in live or catching this later: all the recordings from this summit are available as part of a package. During the week of the summit, you can get them at half price.

We really encourage you to take advantage of this opportunity. You can revisit these conversations anytime and listen at your own pace because they’re so impactful. And yes, these debriefs will be included in the recordings as well.

Diane Dempster: Absolutely. And while you’re reflecting on what you’ve heard—and I know we all stay busy thinking and processing—here’s something else to consider. If there’s someone in your circle who you think could benefit from this conversation, or any of the sessions this week, please share the link with them.

Let them know about the summit and what we’re doing here. There are so many parents out there who are struggling, and this could be one more way to offer them some support.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes, absolutely. All right, everyone, take care. We’ll see you in the next conversation!