Kristen Pressner
If you only look at the world through the lens of a neurotypical, then yeah, these are people who can't get it together. But if you can flip it and see the benefits across the entire continuum of how brains work, then you see the positives. Now, think about your workplace and tell me where you don't need more of that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation on the Parenting with Impact podcast. We are going to have a really interesting conversation today. Our guest is Kristen Pressner, and we're shifting to it from a different lens. She comes to us live from Switzerland and from the corporate world, and it's just an interesting and different spin on neurodiversity. So, I'm really excited to get us started.

Kristen Pressner
Well, thank you for having me. It's great to see you both.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
It's truly a pleasure. This is really exciting. So, Diane, do you want to kick us off?

Diane Dempster
Yeah, Kristen, I know you've got some stuff coming up that you're really focused on with neurodiversity. Talk a little bit about your lens of neurodiversity, how you got started, and what's important about it for you.

Kristen Pressner
Thanks for asking, Diane. I work in human resources from a street cred perspective. I'm the global head of human resources for a large, multi-billion-dollar multinational. And so I'm in the business of bringing out the best in people. It's what I do for a living and something I'm really good at and proud of. What happened to me was that I realized my superpowers didn't seem to work in my own house, and I found this so weird. The COVID pandemic kind of shined a light on it a bit and helped accelerate some things. I pulled the loose thread in the sweater and ultimately realized that everyone else in my house is actually neurodivergent. And I found myself wondering, How did I not see it? I'm a human resources professional. I realized that, quite honestly, I had absolutely no idea what neurodivergence actually looks like in the wild. I also realized that I tended to diagnose what was going on more as character flaws.

They're lazy. They don't apply themselves. They don't care. Which, in retrospect now, really hurts my heart. And it really made me want to do something about sharing what I'd learned so that other people who may be in that kind of oblivious category that I was in can join the ranks of the people who actually have a better understanding.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I love that. You know what that makes me think about? And Diane, you'll know exactly what I'm talking about, particularly when we first started doing this because Diane and I have been doing this for almost 15 years, and when we first started, we were teaching a class called Sanity School© for Parents, which is coaching skills for parents, basically, neurodiversity-informed, and for parents but also for teachers. Teachers would come to us after the first couple of classes in tears because they realized that no matter how well-intended they were, they had been saying things and treating kids in a way that was not helping them be their best selves, to your point. So, there is this guilt in awareness that we kind of had to break down, and I'm curious how that showed up for you and how you navigated that.

Kristen Pressner
I have to say that actually warms my heart a bit; they want my help to help them understand how they did not help, maybe how they hurt in the situation, and I think it's exactly that. I tend to be more action-oriented, and once I realized that kind of everything I knew about neurodiversity was wrong, then, you know, I set about getting my armchair Ph.D. in neurodiversity and, in our family's case, in particular, ADHD, and really trying to understand some things. As an outcome, together as a family, and any stories that I share with the blessing of my family, I think that's important to note that we together created this TEDx talk because we know that is a platform where we can help people to listen. And the talk is really a call to action to neurotypicals who are on the outside in that oblivious zone, and an invitation to now know, and if you know, what's your responsibility, your obligation to do something about that. And so each of them has that teacher, coach, or friend on their list where they want to send the talk and be like, "This explains me."

And this is what I would have needed to be my best self. And we're not talking about people who are of a low standard, and you're trying to get them to a slightly higher, low standard. You know, I always use this joke. It's such a cliché for people who understand ADHD, but I'm like, "Someone suggested looking into ADHD." I'm like, "My kids can't have ADHD. Heck, one of them can write a 12-page term paper the night before with no breaks, top marks." And of course, now I'm like, "Right, that is the hallmark of ADHD." Right? Again, I didn't know how to recognize it. And I'm like, "These kids are thriving." I've got kids who got into Ivy League schools, who've done their own TEDx talks, and who graduated a year early, so there are all these really great examples of awesomeness, of what I call achievers.

Yeah, really, really good at hard things and really garbage at what I call easy things, and I just found it so baffling. I was like, "Who's the parent around here? Am I just a terrible parent?" Once we realized there was something biological that could cause this outcome, I became a woman on a mission to say, "OK, what should we do about it?" Because we also know that ADHD and neurodiversity can come with negative consequences as well. I saw some of those comorbidities in my house, and I was worried for my family.

Diane Dempster
Well, I want to take you back for a minute because you said something that I want to highlight: "It's easy to create stories about things that don't make any sense to us." Right? It just doesn't make sense. And so we immediately go, "Oh, this must be what it is." And it sounds like that's part of what you did—like, "I need to have this make sense in my brain, so I'm going to label it." "How natural is it that we do that? And how common?"

Kristen Pressner
Yeah, and I would just use myself as an example. I wouldn't dare to do it to anyone else. But then you start to notice things. I have four kids, so I also have more than the average number of people to observe, plus a husband who was late diagnosed. Each one is different, so I couldn't see patterns because they manifest so differently in each individual.

You're right. I was trying to make sense of it but couldn't. So then you go, "Hmm, are you less clever than the other?" "No, it doesn't seem like you're less clever." And again, I couldn't for the life of me figure it out until I unraveled the mystery of how their brains work. I always call it learning how to hack them so their greatness can come out. It required me to engage differently, and it required them to understand their own brains and let go of some of the shame associated with it as well.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Exactly. I want to dive in a little deeper. Let's double-click on that for a minute because you just gloss over it as if everybody understands. Let's take a minute.

We all do this, right? Because we understand it so well. You can have a house with five people with ADHD, and it will look like five different manifestations. And that's just one aspect of neurodivergence. One of the challenges in identifying neurodivergence is that it presents very differently in different people.

Kristen Pressner
Oh, 100 percent. And maybe coming at it from another angle because, usually, ADHD and neurodiversity come with a wonderful bonus of comorbidities like anxiety, depression, and eating disorders—things that can kill you. So here I was, in the throes of realizing that five out of six people in my house, everybody but me, were not well. I was trying to get diagnoses, trying to figure out what was going on, and it was manifesting very differently in each individual. And Diane, to your point, it changed minute by minute. I was looking for a scalable way to solve this because I also have a big job. I was trying to figure out how to solve this once and for all. What's the one thing I can do across all five of them?

Magic wands—yes, the magic wands! And this is why I ended up deciding to do the TEDx talk. I thought, “Once I figure out what the magic wand is, I'm going to tell everybody because I don't want anyone to have to suffer like I am.” And I'll tell you what the magic wand is—OK? It's to be a brainfriend. In essence, this is what I share in my TEDx talk: "Being a brainfriend means recognizing that all of our brains are different." They jumpstart differently. Generally speaking, neurotypicals are motivated by what's important. If something is important, it will jumpstart the motivation to action to get outcomes.

But for someone with ADHD in my house, you can't jumpstart motivation with importance. Importance doesn't move them at all. But if I can hack their interest, then I can get motivation, actions, and eventually outcomes. If I gave you, all three of us, a list of 10 things, and we needed to put them in order of importance, we would probably put them in the same-ish order. But if we made a list of interesting things, we would put them in completely different orders. This is how I came to understand why it seems ever-changing, almost like that Whac-A-Mole game at the fair of what I'm trying to do. But knowing that enables me to hack it.

So, a brainfriend isn't judgy; it's just curious about how to enable my partner to be more successful and to stop looking at everything through the lens of a neurotypical world. I'll tell you this: what we say is, "We in a neurotypical world describe important brains as orderly, dependable, and in control." And we, therefore, describe interesting brains as all over the place—inconsistent and out of control. They are not nice words. Nope. And... It's so lousy.

Yes, and the reality is that this feels like the most important thing for me—because we're looking at it all wrong. If we were to actually look at it through the lens of gifts, then you wouldn't say, "All over the place"—you would say, "Able to focus on sudden, unexpected things." That's a good thing.

You wouldn't say, "Inconsistent"—you would say, "Able to change strategy, try new things, and respond quickly." That seems like the kind of thing this world needs.

And you wouldn't say, "Out of control"—you would say, "Full of drive" because their body floods easily with adrenaline.

So, if you flip the language, you see the benefits and the beauty, and that's what we're trying to amplify. In my view, that's what being a brainfriend does. It's a relatively small effort on my part to bring out the best in my partner.

Diane Dempster
Well, and I love that. Orderly, dependable, and in control. It just says that those are the three things we're looking for in human nature.

Elaine, this reminds me of the conversation we had in a podcast about trust, where we talked about one of the things required to trust somebody. We were using the Brené Brown model of trust, which is dependability. And by definition, these humans are not dependable. And so, it's a setup to assume that in order to trust somebody, they have to be this thing that they just are not by nature.

Kristen Pressner
Yes, so much that. And I tell you, my poor husband, because his entire identity is "Person who can be counted on," "Boy Scout," "Mr. Dependable." It was incredible. Now that he, at 47, got a diagnosis and can look back retrospectively on his life, he's like, "Whoa." Because in the times that he wasn't dependable, it was amazing how his brain wrote a narrative about why that was to make it make sense to him and to others around him.

And so, all of a sudden, as I started pulling this loose thread in the sweater, I was like, "I don't think you can be counted on."

And that was the ultimate knife through the heart for him because he wanted to be able to be counted on. But we had to accept that in spite of how much he wants that, it's not as dependable for him as it is for somebody who doesn't have ADHD at play.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Well, and that's the nature of it. Part of the diagnosis is that I can't get myself to do what it is I know I want to do, and therein lies the paradox; the conflict is it's not that I don't want to remember to do whatever it is you've asked me to do, but that requires a different process to be able to do it.

Kristen Pressner
Yeah, and this is the way I look at it as a neurotypical—how exhausting must that be? I force myself to do the thing. I got up this morning, took the walk, and set my alarm extra early. And this was really the hard part because my kids were giving me glimmers. "Mom, I have to read the same page over and over." "Mom, I'm trying to listen to you, but my mind wanders." "Mom."

And every time, my answer was the same: "That happens to everybody sometimes." "You just need to try harder." Yes, try harder. Exactly. Because I thought that their brains were like my brain, and now that I understand that I might have to get up and stretch my legs once every couple of hours, but they would have to get up and stretch their legs 10 times a minute.

Now, it's a scaled problem. Now I understand. And so, my mental model is: If they say something's hard, it's 600 times harder than it is for me.

Diane Dempster
So, let's dig into that when we come back from a break.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Welcome back, everybody. Our guest is Kristen Pressner. We are talking about the awareness and the understanding of neurodiversity and how that plays out at work and at home. And the hacks that neurotypicals can understand and do to really shift.

What did you say? "It's a relatively small effort on my part to bring out the best in my partner." What a beautiful awareness that is. And you've talked about not using judgment, using curiosity. Those of you in our community who are listening will hear a lot of what she's talking about, which is exactly what we teach in this coaching approach because it's about shifting the way we are with neurodiversity.

Diane Dempster
Well, and the third one that I just want to highlight—the language we use, Kristen, is assuming best intention, right? And that sounds like part of what's going on underneath that. You were just telling a story about your husband, but so dig in a little bit about that moment of A-ha for you. Is it like, "OK, I got to do this differently when I'm engaging with my partner, my kids?" What was some of that awareness?

Kristen Pressner
Yeah, it was funny. We travel all around Europe, and I remember once we went on holiday with an older family member. I was annoyed because I was trying to get 10,000 steps a day, and they walked really, really slowly. So I would find myself at, like, 10 p.m. having to get my steps because we didn't cover much ground. I was getting so annoyed. And then, luckily, I came across this article that said, "If you want to be happy on holiday, remember, you're only as fast as your slowest member." And I was like, "That is the most obvious, powerful thing I've ever heard." Because I just accepted—not that someone didn't keep up with the rest of us who were fast, they were the pacesetters. Right. And I apply that a bit in my life. That mental model and another one, which is: This is biological. This isn't a choice. It's not a character flaw. This is biological. It's neurotransmitters. It's the prefrontal cortex, both of which are indisputably biologically different.

If my husband had cancer, would I be like, "Hey, man, be less cancery?" No. So, my husband has ADHD. So, I have a responsibility as someone who loves him and has built a life with him and four children with him to meet him in the most reasonable place if I want to stay married in this loving relationship. And so the combination of those two things kind of led me to being a brainfriend.

Again, I'm not talking about turning myself into a pretzel every single minute for everybody else. But in HR, we have this notion of reasonable accommodations. You know, you do something reasonable to accommodate someone. If it's unreasonable, you don't have to do it.

And I'll give you an example. My husband, every single day, would leave his wet towel on my half of the bed when he got dressed in the morning, which drove me nuts every day. I can't tell you how many times we've talked about it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Oh, we know. Number one example we get from parents besides not brushing teeth is the wet towel or the towel on the floor.

Kristen Pressner
I had no idea. I didn't know this was an ADHD thing. Before his diagnosis, I was like, "Do you not love me? Can you not change your process?" Like, you know, the towel became the thing in our marriage, you know? And then, once I understood his diagnosis and we kind of unpacked it a little bit, he's like, "I have really good intentions to take my towel, but there's something about getting ready in the morning that gets my mind down the train of what's coming, and I forget my towel every day."

And so, I just made a deal with myself that is a brainfriend. Like, I have wind in my back. Life is easier for me. He has wind in his face. Life is harder for him. A reasonable accommodation is: When I find the towel on my half of the bed, I pick it up and hang it up.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, I'm with you. And yet, so many people find resentment in that little action, right? It's really easy to build and hold on to resentment that "Why can't they just...?"

Kristen Pressner
Well, some days when I'm not feeling like hanging it up, I just move it to his side of the bed.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I was going to say, Do you move it to his side of the bed?  

Kristen Pressner
And it's bare. My family knows we use the brain-friend language, and I think it helps because sometimes my kids—my adult children—are like, "Why are you...?" Like, I'll say my son forgets to eat. So I'll come in around 8 p.m. and be like, "Here's a sandwich." And he feels embarrassed that he didn't feed himself. He feels embarrassed that his mom has to bring him food. And I'm like, "This is what a brainfriend does. There's no judgment here. I want your awesomeness to come out, and you forget to eat." What a brainfriend does is bring a sandwich when it's time to eat. We've built that language into our house, and I think it's so important. But I also reserve the right because there are five of them and one of me. I reserve the right about once a week to lose my garbage and just say, "I can't do it right now. I cannot be brain-friendly for these five minutes because it's too much for me."

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Fair. Yeah. So, we have that in my house, and we call it mise en place. We go, and we go. And I taught, particularly when the kids were younger and still living in the house. And when I hit my limit, I would call mise en place. We would turn on music for 10 minutes, and everybody would just start putting stuff away, and it was just this deal we had.

I'm going to surrender what I can surrender. And then, at some point, when it hits the threshold where the clutter was more than I could be with because I'm also neurodivergent, then we kind of had this deal. Right? And it was part of the brainfriendliness. We got to meet everybody's brain. And for you, you're not picking up after yourself, and that's because you leave this wake. The clutter puts me over the edge. And so we have to meet everybody's needs.

Kristen Pressner
Yeah, that's awesome. I'm gonna steal that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Mise en place was great. So, I know we want to start wrapping the conversation, but I don't want to start wrapping the conversation because it's too interesting.

Let's take a minute and say, how can people find out more about you? And then let's come back and finish the conversation.

Kristen Pressner
OK. Well, unlike most of the experts you probably have on the show, I'm just an executive who happens to be passionate about this topic. And so, I would say, my gift, hopefully, to the world together with my family, is to do this TEDx talk to try to break through to the neurotypicals who might be oblivious to how neurodivergence shows up. And I would say their and/or our important role in that.

So, first and foremost, I would say hop on YouTube and search for Kristen Pressner, watch my TEDx talk, and share it with people who you think would benefit from a better understanding of neurodiversity and, in particular, what we can do to unleash the potential in everybody or you can find me on LinkedIn or at kristenpressner.com.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Awesome. All right. And we will have all that in the show notes, everybody. So, but we have time. I don't want to shortcut this, but I want to come back and say, like, You are a passionate woman, executive thought leader in this arena. What do you think is really most important for our community for everybody to understand? What's the essence of this that you hope people will take away from this conversation today?

Kristen Pressner
Yeah, I think what worries me the most is that hard-won lessons learned in the Pressner house will stay in the Pressner house. My family really wishes that we could pay forward to the rest of the world what we've learned with a call to action and a breakthrough into the neurotypical community. This is not just a parenting topic, although it is massively a parenting and a family topic. It's a workplace topic. It's a sports team topic. It's a school topic. It's anywhere there are humans.

And so, I personally feel like enabling this world and addressing this world's problems in this complexity that we face needs all the brains. And we're holding back the potential of some of the brains because the brains don't understand themselves; they don't know how to hack themselves to get the right outcome. The comorbidities are taking over and holding back all that potential because people aren't understood. Because neurotypicals are judging them against the wrong yardstick or not doing what I would consider minor interventions that can bring out their benefit. Like, what are we thinking? Look around. We could surely use all the brains. And when I look at the superpowers that neurodiverse brains have, we need more of that.

And so, for me, it's just how do we get the word out so that we can rewrite this narrative that the world is only for neurotypicals?

Diane Dempster
And what's coming up for me immediately when you say that, Kristen, and a lot of the parents that are listening to this podcast get what you said, and they live in a world that feels like the world doesn't get it, the school doesn't get it, the church doesn't get it, the sports coach doesn't get it and so let's speak into that a little bit.

Kristen Pressner
In there, I was also the person who didn't get it. And what I would say is I'm hoping to give a phraseology for people to invite others into curiosity and understanding, which is the why behind BrainFriend. And so, if people better understand their own brains, they can ask for a brainfriend, and for people who want to be an ally for neurodivergence, they can offer to be a brainfriend. And again, you can be a brainfriend to anyone. At its core, this is just talking about being an inclusive, curious person. Whether you're neurotypical, neurodivergent, or whatever? There are things that I can do to bring out the best in you, and they're not that big of a deal for me to do, but they're really super helpful for you. Why wouldn't I do them?

And so, the invitation is to give a language to everyone on how we can have a collective way of thinking and talking about being more inclusive and bringing out the best in everyone.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, can we go back, building on that, to something Diane was talking about earlier? For those who want to be inclusive, I hear that message, but then there are those who, on some level, still don't understand it, and they do find it not trustworthy, unreliable, I can't trust you to... How do I...?

So, can we speak a little bit to the people who have a more linear way of being, who may expect things to be a certain way and don't feel comfortable with those of us who are wired differently? What are your thoughts on that?

Kristen Pressner
It's a tricky one because these are big problems, and the world is wired in a particular way. Until we address that, it almost feels like we can't move, and so I'm a firm believer in building a movement of the willing—a coalition of the willing. I could tell you as an employer, I see that with each generation, the balance of power in the workplace shifts. Baby boomers, for example, had to work hard to create opportunities for themselves. But with more recent generations, there are fewer of them, so there's a war for talent, and the talent gets to call the shots.

I don't know about you, but my young adult children are not going to be told who they need to be or how they need to show up. They are who they are, and they're much more confident in themselves than I ever was at that age.

Someone said to me the other day, "The solution is to get all these old people out and let the kids take over." Maybe they're not wrong. But I can say that we probably can't solve everything, but we can solve a lot. My mother always used to say, "If everyone does a little, no one does a lot." It was my mantra while raising four kids. "If everyone does a little, no one does a lot." And it scales here. If each of us does a little, we can rewrite the fabric of how our societies, schools, churches, etc., are built.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. What about in the workplace? Since you're in HR, how do you guide managers in the workplace who may not be as well-schooled in this? What are some little steps that might begin to move the needle?

Kristen Pressner
Great question. I ask my kids this, too, because I'm curious about which reasonable accommodations would really go a long way. This is partly why I wanted to do the TEDx talk because I think a lot of people at my work will listen to it. And then, we have a common understanding from which to have a conversation. But, again, this isn't about being nice to people who aren't good at their jobs; this is about unleashing strengths like:

• The ability to focus on sudden, unexpected things in a rapidly changing workplace.
• The ability to change strategy, try new things, and respond quickly. I do that daily.
• The ability to harness a body that floods with adrenaline to power through challenges.

These are all things we need in the workplace. So I would first come at it from the angle of, "If you want more of that, you might need to do more of this." And so just relatively small things like... It was cute, my son was interviewing for a job recently, and they were trying to be neurodiverse-friendly, and they said, "Would it be helpful for you if you could pick your starting hours or work from home sometimes?" And he was like, "No, please, no. I need the structure. Make me." Yeah. He's like, "Make me come in there at a certain time."

Exactly. And this is the thing, there's no magic recipe or magic wand for what's going to work. The person needs to be introspective enough to understand what helps them and hurts them. And then they need to be able to ask for it. And then, we need to determine, is that reasonable? Or is it unreasonable? And so, we have somebody who never, ever, ever, never shows up in the office, not for most jobs, would it be possible to put on noise-canceling headphones if they need to focus in an open office setup? Sure. Why not?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. And so, we often say our job is to help parents understand their kids well enough for them to be able to help their kids understand themselves well enough to learn to manage themselves. And so a lot of what you're speaking about is that understanding it is what allows you to be in the process of problem-solving for each individual issue as it comes up. But you have to be willing to see that as an opportunity, not as an obstacle.

Diane Dempster
Willing to see that it's not a deficit, right? It's a sort of, again, it's the double edge of that. Right?

Kristen Pressner
Exactly. Everything is two sides of the same coin. But I think this is what feels important to me is for people to recognize that if you only look at the world through the lens of a neurotypical, then yeah, these are people who can't get it together and are out of control and all of the negative things. But if you can flip it and see the benefits across the entire continuum of how brains work. In that case, I think the important thing in the workplace is to understand that if we only look at things through the neurotypical lens, then yeah, we'll describe neurodivergences as all over the place, inconsistent, and out of control.

But if you look at them through the lens of the good that they bring, not only through the lens of a neurotypical world, then you see the positives, and those positives, the ability to focus on unexpected, sudden things, the ability to change strategy, try new things, the ability to get that drive that comes from being flooded easily with adrenaline, that enables unique thinking that reveals hidden connections, to be flexible, resilient, and quick to master new things, and to be intensely imaginative and creative.

Now, think about your workplace. Tell me where you don't need more of that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I love that. Thank you. I needed this today. It's a great affirmation and reminder. I was one of those ADDers who wasn't diagnosed until my 40s. I grew up thinking I was stupid. People kept telling me I was smart, and I thought I was fooling them all. It wasn't until I was diagnosed that I looked back and saw how much I had done to accommodate myself and how I had made it work despite...

I really want to applaud and acknowledge what you're doing because we do this because we don't want our kids to grow up feeling the way I felt, my husband felt, or my kids did for the first 10 years. You don't want people to grow up the way your kids felt when you didn't understand. So thank you for doing this.

Kristen Pressner
Thank you both. This is important work. Just think of all the potential being left on the table that could be released with this work.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, is there anything else you want to throw in before we ask you your favorite quote or motto? Anything else you want to wrap up this conversation for yourself?

Kristen Pressner
No, I would just say what my mother always said: "If everyone does a little, no one does a lot." Think about what small thing you can do that could have a big impact on the way you interact with others in the world because I think the world would be a much better place.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Love that. Is that your favorite quote or motto?

Kristen Pressner
I brought another one. It's from Ken Blanchard, the co-author of The One Minute Manager: "None of us is as smart as all of us." And it's just a reminder it takes all the brains to solve the world's problems. None of us is as smart as all of us.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I love that. Thank you.

Diane Dempster
Kristen, thank you so much for being with us. What a delightful conversation. I'm so excited for your movement, to see where it goes, and to have you on our bandwagon. It feels like and vice versa.

Kristen Pressner
Vice versa. Thank you both so much for the opportunity. I'm really passionate about the work you do, and it was an honor to be on the show. Thank you.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Thank you. We appreciate it. And to everyone listening.

Diane Dempster
So, take a minute before we close and reflect on the conversation today. What's one nugget? What's one insight you want to take from our conversation with Kristen today back into your life, back into your home, back into your work?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
What's your A-ha? What is it that has you that you can bring forward with you in the coming weeks to really begin to shift, whereas we say, move the needle just a little bit in your world, whatever that is for you? And as always, everyone, thank you for what you're doing for yourselves and for your kids, as this conversation is evidence of that better than anything could. At the end of the day, it makes an enormous difference. Take care, everybody.