Ari Tuckman
For kids and teens, but even for adults, I think there's often this sense of you're working on your ADHD for the benefit of other people. You're working on it so other people won't be pissed off at you. At a deeper level, it's more about who I want to be in the world.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Welcome back, everybody, to another conversation in the Parenting with Impact podcast. I am really psyched to have a conversation today with my friend and colleague, Ari Tuckman. Ari and I have known and worked with each other for a long time. Years ago, we served on the board of CHADD together. He continues to be one of the annual co-leaders of the International Conference on ADHD and he manages to do it with a great sense of humor and a great sense of diplomacy. So, I don't even know how many years you've been doing it, but kudos to you for that amazing service to the ADHD community. 

Ari Tuckman
Well, for all the stress, it's a lot of fun, and the people I do it with are awesome. So it's all worth it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
See, he always does it with a smile and a good sense of humor. It's amazing. And in his own right, Ari is a professional leading expert in the realm of ADHD. He's written many books. He has given many talks and really has a wonderful spin. He's done work for families, for parents, for adults. He's done work around ADHD and sexuality. He's done all kinds of interesting spins on the world of ADHD. So Ari, welcome. How did you get into the world? Why did you end up in this space as a psychologist? 

Ari Tuckman
Yeah, so, I wound up sort of falling into adult ADHD when I first came out of grad school in the late 90s, and one of the psychiatrists in the group practice I was in basically sort of turned me on to it, where he said, I've got all these adults with ADHD and, like, I'm putting them on medication, and, it helps. But they could really use some additional help with practical life skills. That sounds familiar. Basically kind of talking about almost ADHD coaching without using the words, ‘cuz I don't know if that was actually even a thing then. So... 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Coaching was a thing then. So, yeah. 

Ari Tuckman
But, like specifically ADHD coaching, I don't know, maybe there's a little bit about it, but my joke at the time was that if you knew three things about adult ADHD, you were the expert in town. And, of course, now you have to have about five or maybe six. So, it has gotten better, or maybe we're at eight or nine, actually. So, double digits any day now. And it's just been great. Like, I love the people I work with. It's a really good fit for kind of how I think and how I like to sort of solve problems. So, yeah, I went from seeing a bunch of adults and then, I see kids and teens as well, and I see couples, and I don't know. I mean, ADHD is just people, so obviously, everything applies, but it's been a good time, and I get to meet cool people like you and hang out sometimes.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, we do. We get to hang out a couple, once or once or twice a year. It's always good. 

Ari Tuckman
Yeah. Yeah. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, you said something that really stuck with me. ADHD is just people. And what's always struck me, like when I started getting into this realm, and, I work with parents of complex kids, and so do you. So ADHD and anxiety, depression and learning disabilities, it's all of it. ADHD travels with lots of cousins. And the piece that really struck out what you just said is that it influences every aspect of their life. And we used to think of it as it's, it was what little boys dealt with in school or like there are so many assumptions about it out there and there's a lot of information, but really what's fascinating about it is that there's not a piece of someone's life that can't be impacted by their ADHD. What would you say about it?  

Ari Tuckman
And that's absolutely true. I mean, we bring all of ourselves to everything we do. For better or worse, we do. So, yeah, I mean, if only ADHD ceased to be relevant when the school bell rings at the end of the day or when someone hands you a high school diploma, if only. So I think it kind of tells us a couple of things. I mean, one is that like this is important, this is serious stuff that we're talking about and that we're working on and we're helping our clients with. But I also think what it says is if you have found that, like your life if you're the one with ADHD or if it's a family member or a loved one, if they've had a bunch of different struggles in a bunch of different places and things that should have worked didn't work. This might be the reason why you've struggled as much as you can. And that's the bad news. The good news is, as you really understand ADHD beyond just kind of the superficial level, it's empowering to know how to handle these situations better. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, it is. And so before we go on to how to handle it, because what you just pointed to is so interesting, ADHD shows up in all aspects of our lives. How we do anything is how we do everything. You take yourself wherever you go, and then you said, as you really understand it, it's really empowering to know how to handle it, but really understanding it. And it's not always so easy because it looks so different in different people. So, let's talk about its complexity and nuance first. Before we move to...

Ari Tuckman
Yeah, and I think that's absolutely true. I mean, it depends on who you are and the situation that you're in. And, as much as, in its purest form, so to speak, ADHD is really sort of like a neurological thing. It has to do with the transmission mostly of dopamine and, how receptors pick it up and whatever. But, like, we're not just kind of a bag of cells that sort of walks around the world, but rather, kind of the neurological becomes psychological in the sense that the experiences that we have, how people treat you, what you tend to do well with, what you tend to struggle with, how your successes and failures are sort of attributed. As in, like, you worked really hard, you're so smart, good job, or why did you wait so long to do this, what's wrong with you, you're just not responsible, or you need to take life more seriously, or all the other critical things that kids with ADHD experience, like, that has an effect on how you see yourself, how you relate to other people, how you deal with challenges that life inevitably brings, so like, absolutely, it shapes who you are and how you sort of travel through the world.

So, the people you have around you, how they understand this, how they sort of react to it, has a big effect then on shaping that person, certainly as a kid, but even as an adult in, let's say, a romantic relationship and the patterns that develop between spouses, like, there is a lot going on there. There's a lot of points of intervention, and there's a lot of places to kind of make things a little bit better. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. Yeah. So what you said is it shapes who you are and how you travel through the world. And that you weren't talking about the ADHD, we're talking about how people respond to your ADHD. Right? Exactly. And that's part of the nuance. So not only is it complicated and it shows up in all these different ways, and so there are lots of people who don't understand that whatever challenge they're facing in the world could very well be attributed to not having yet learned how to manage that part of their ADHD. Right. But then you're dealing with the judgment of the world, the acceptance of the world, the welcoming of the world, or the challenge of the, whatever it is. However, if you've got a parent who says, "You're so smart, why can't you just," you're getting this mixed message that you're so smart, but... 

Ari Tuckman
Sure. The dreaded just. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
The dreaded just. Right. So, there's something really important about how we talk to and with people with ADHD and the things that they struggle with and are challenged by. 

Ari Tuckman
Yeah, because what happens is people look at what we do, and from that, they tend to sort of infer our intentions. If you did the thing I asked you to do, I'm going to assume that you had good intentions and you took it seriously. If you dropped the ball, if you forgot it, if you waited to the last minute, I might look at that and say, I don't think she really cared that much about this. Or maybe she didn't care much about me at that moment. So, if it's one or two things, we infer intentions. If this is an ongoing pattern, which obviously it would be with ADHD, then we begin to infer your character. And that becomes a whole different ball game. And then, as a person with ADHD, you begin to infer your character. And that becomes a whole different ball game. And then, as a person with ADHD, you begin to internalize how people see you.

And it kind of calls back to that old, original, one of the first books on adult ADHD. And you mean I'm not lazy, stupid, or crazy because that's kind of what you're left with. Like that's what you got some variation to explain. Why do you keep shooting yourself in the foot like this? So, understanding, oh, this is like a brain-wiring thing, this is like a neurological thing, I don't choose this, it's just that certain things are hard for me, even though I'm really smart in other ways, it really sort of changes how you understand that, and, or how other people perhaps understand it, family members and friends who understand ADHD better.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Right. Which is not always the case, but we'll get there. 

Ari Tuckman
Not yet.  

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
But there are these three layers that I think I just heard you refer to. One is that we infer people's behavior and their intentions, like whether they care or not, whether they care about us, whatever. Then, we take it to the next level, which is a character issue. It must be a character flaw. It's kind of what Ned Caldwell calls the moral diagnosis. 

Ari Tuckman
Yes. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
And then the next layer under that is then that colors and informs the messages people with ADHD interpret for themselves. Therefore, I must be, and I have a husband who's almost 60 years old, still with ADHD, still managing, trying to figure out how to manage and still dealing with some of those messages and realizing the ways in which the story he made up for himself as a young boy was, I'm bad, I'm a bad kid because I fill in the blank because I don't do this, that, or the other or don't fulfill that expectation. And that stays with you for a lifetime. 

Ari Tuckman
Yeah, and that's exactly it. Because and the thing about it is. I sort of say, like, anxiety and depression lie to you in the sense that they make things seem worse. They're a distortion of the reality. There's an inaccuracy to it. This stuff that we're talking about, like, unfortunately, there's actually a whole lot of track record that really supports these ideas. Like, you've had many, many experiences. I'm dropping the ball, so it's not like you're beating up on yourself for nothing, so, and maybe this is where we're pivoting into the what do we do about it, but like. So, part of this is helping someone with ADHD indeed be more effective in the world, like get more done, be more efficient, less running late, less kind of losing things, whatever, all that standard stuff. And absolutely, there is a place for that. Like I've done a ton of writing and presenting on it.

You guys have done a ton on that. Like, I'm all in favor of doing better, but there's a limit to how much better anyone's ever going to do like none of us are going to be perfect. So, there's another side of it, which is kind of coming to a point of recognizing, like, how good do I really need to be? Like, how good is good enough? Who gets to vote on what's good enough? Maybe even who are the people I want in my life, because some people are good to have in your life. They appreciate the awesome parts of who you are and what you bring. And there are other people who kind of don't, or, at some level, they need someone to struggle because they need to feel better than them, or they need to be the victim, and that might work for them. I would say otherwise, but, at some level, it works for them, but it may not work for you. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
So, a beautiful place. Let's take a quick break. We're going to come back and pick this up. 

Welcome back, everybody. My guest is Ari Tuckman, and we're talking about really just generically about ADHD and understanding ADHD and understanding what it does emotionally; I think for people as they, as they live with it when they are surrounded by people who may not be as understanding or supportive, like the impact that can happen when we internalize these negative messages. And I was thinking just personally, recently, about a conversation with somebody, a family member, when I kind of said, well, what, what do you want from me? And basically, the message I got was, I want you to be different. I want you to think differently. I want you to talk differently. And it was kind of like, you know what? I am never going to be able to be that person that this person is. Hey, I'm just not. I am not embarrassed about that. I'm not ashamed of that. I refuse to be wrong for not thinking the way someone else thinks. Sure. I think I've got kind of some good stuff going on, it took me a lot of years to get to this point. Right? 

Ari Tuckman
Oh, it does. I mean, it absolutely does. And especially if you're female and how females and males are kind of socialized differently. But the thing of it is. So the situation in that case is this: your friend was unhappy with your behavior. If we just simplify it down. They propose one solution. You change your behavior, therefore, I will be happier. That is indeed a solution, and sometimes that's legit. Sometimes, we call each other out in a good way, like you're better than this. I need this from you. And, like, that is totally fine. But there's also another solution in this scenario, which is I'm not the friend that you need me to be like; I can't be that person. Also, I don't know that I want to. Also, I don't know that you're the friend I need in my life. That is a second option that I would probably recommend, given what you've said. But like, they're yeah, there's not only that one solution, and yet I think, for a lot of folks who kind of get used to being the one who screwed up, if something got screwed up, it was probably your fault kind of thing. That second option kind of doesn't come to mind. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
I think that's very fair. And in this scenario, and I think I see this a lot with parents in the scenario, it isn't even anything that I have done. It's the way I think, like some people in the world believe there's a right and a wrong. And the way I see it is the right way and everything else is the wrong way. And we see that with parents all the time when, when I see how my kids should do something if they don't do it the way I think they should, they've done it wrong, even if they find a perfectly reasonable, if weird, solution on their own. And so there is this respect for different ways of thinking that is very challenging for people who don't understand neurodiversity. And to your point, people who have it, if we've been beaten down all our lives, it's very hard to have the self-confidence to say, actually, no, the way I think it is just fine. Thank you. 

Ari Tuckman
And that, I think, is like, that's the other half of working on this is feeling good about who you are and what you bring to the world and to relationships and showing people that you're working hard, even when things don't work out or go according to plan, assuming there was a plan, and, like, I don't know, just not trying to be somebody you're not, I mean, obviously, work hard, act with integrity, be responsible, like we should all do that but there's a limit, and it's sort of, I don't know, Rick Green had this awesome quote that I've been using a lot recently, which is, "I used to suffer from ADHD, now I just have it," and I think that that's awesome, because it kind of, Pulls those two things apart. It can feel like if one, then two, but it's not necessarily.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
No, it's not at all. And so part of doing the work to your point earlier is managing ADD, whether it's for you as an adult or whether it's helping your kids get a handle on it. Some of it is the executive function stuff. It's how I figure out how not to lose my keys and get my bills paid and all that stuff. It's important. You got to do it. Not undermining that at all. And there's this other kind of meta piece around it that's about understanding it, accepting it, being with it, loving yourself for all of your gifts and your challenges. And my husband and I have talked about it a lot. The reason we are still married after 30-something years is because there was this capacity to say, I know that this is what your intention was, even if you weren't always able to follow through.

Ari Tuckman
Yeah. Right. And that's huge. Like that is a really big deal. And, I think that especially for kids and teens, but even for adults, I think that there's often this sense of, like, you're working on your ADHD for the benefit of other people, you know what I mean? Like, you're working on it so other people won't be pissed off at you. And I mean, okay. I guess. Sort of. I mean, we all live in society, so, like, you can't be a total jerk. But at a deeper level, it's more about integrity, and like, who do I want to be in the world? How do I want to treat people? How do I want to function? How do I pursue the things in life that are important to me? I mean, we all got to pay the piper. We all have boring paperwork to fill out, and you got to wake up early and, like, all the responsibilities of life still apply. But what is a meaningful life for me? That's why I'm doing the things that I don't feel like doing, and like the friendships I want to have in their romantic relationship I want to have and the work relationships I want to have.

Like being like making those into, I don't know, just making them better. These are the people I want to surround myself with. This is how I want to relate to people in the world. Like, that's the bigger, deeper thing. And that's more sort of you for yourself than others sort of impose it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah. And the beauty of it is when you really start getting clear on what's in it for me, how am I managing myself and my ADHD so that I feel good about how I will be in the world, then you get this beautiful cascading impact. It's like the pebble in the lake that cascades out, and it starts showing up in other relationships. But there's a certain amount; what you're saying is there's a certain amount of saying yes to ourselves and sometimes saying no to expectations of others that you're speaking to.

Ari Tuckman
That's absolutely true. Yeah, I mean, whether you have ADHD or not, you still sometimes say no. Because there's always more stuff, there's always more demand than there is time. I think that if you struggled with ADHD where you get yourself into trouble is if you unintentionally drop the ball a few too many times. It feels like you don't have that social capital, so to speak, to be able to say, "No, I've used up my three passes. I got to say yes to this," which, kind of my line is it's sort of like setting yourself up for failure and them up for disappointment, like, don't agree to something that's probably not going to work out, definitely better to have that conversation earlier rather than at the last minute, when there's nothing to be done for it and, to feel like it is okay to say, I could do this thing, but I choose not to, like, to be blunt, I don't want to do this, it's one thing to say, I just can't do it. That's an easier out, but to say, I just don't want to. That is the ultimate use of your sort of agency. To feel like you can, you have the right to do that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
You know, I have this concept that I play with clients a lot called "The Juicy No." And The Juicy No is I'd like to say yes to that because it sounds interesting or appealing or sexy or engaging or, and right now where I am in my life right now, I'm saying no to this because juicy as it may be, it's not a good choice for me now.

Ari Tuckman
Yeah, I think that's awesome. It's because it is interesting, but unfortunately, interesting is not enough because the world is full of interesting things—too many of them. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
More and more. 

Ari Tuckman
Yeah. It's like when you go to the buffet bar. Like assuming it's a good one. There's way more than one meal's worth of stuff there, and you can overload your plate, but at the end of it, you just feel sick, and you're not eating the rest of the last, or if you do, you're not enjoying it. You're just forcing it down cause it's there. So, yeah, I think that juicy now is a great concept.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
It's a fun framework. All right. I hate to do this, but we have to start wrapping up this conversation. All right. How can people find out more about you and your books? We'll put whatever you want in the show notes. What should we put? 

Ari Tuckman
Sure. So the best place is adultadhdbook.com. That's my website for my books, speaking, and stuff like that. So, definitely check that out. There's also the big annual conference. We do an in person in the fall, and now we've started, we're doing an online conference on March 7th and 8th. So if you go to chadd.org, that's kind of the easiest place. You can get some info on that. Lots of good stuff there.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. And you guys have heard us talk about the International Conference on ADHD a million times ad infinitum. That's where Diane and I met. We've been there every year since 2010. And so you'll get plenty of information if you're on our mailing list or in our community, you will see information about the conference. Ari, thank you. Anything else you want to say to kind of button up what we've talked about or something we didn't talk about that you feel like we missed? 

Ari Tuckman
I think I'll just sort of really make this explicit. Just like the importance of community. Of not feeling like you're going it alone, of having people you can sort of talk to and get good information from, or I don't know, like this and all the other cool stuff you and Diane do—just good resources. You don't have to figure it out the hard way. But also just that, more social support is needed to have a community of people who get it, who you can sort of laugh with, who you can vent to, and maybe even kind of cry to, over, all the struggles that come in life, and certainly all the struggles that come even more when you've got a complex kid. So, seek out those people, whether it's just a one-off friend, or more official communities like this one, or the conference, or otherwise. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Beautiful. I couldn't agree more. When Diane and I started Impact, there were three, three buckets, if you will, coaching, community, and classroom and, and it's the magic of the three of them that, here we are 13 years later, and it's, we're still doing coaching community and classroom.

Ari Tuckman
So. Yep, exactly. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
All right. You got a favorite quote or motto. I know you got Rick's quote, "I used to suffer from ADHD. Now, I just have it." What about yours? Coming from you.

Ari Tuckman
Here's one that I sort of use a lot, which is "ADHD doesn't invent new problems. It just exacerbates the universal ones." Whether you're an adult with ADHD, a parent of a kid, if you are a kid with ADHD, if you're in a marriage where one person has ADHD, or maybe both. Link. It's not brand new. You're not discovering new ways to be miserable. It's the same stuff everybody deals with, but it's more often, more visible. Probably a bigger consequence, perhaps, but it is the regular stuff. So, like, you are in good company, and that the stuff that works for folks with ADHD, most of it kind of works pretty well for everybody. But the standard stuff, we can't necessarily go the other way. That just the standard stuff may not work as well. But if you find the right strategies, then they do work a whole lot better. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Yeah, I love that. I've been a strong advocate in the last couple of years for universal design. The more we look at supporting people with neurodiversity, when we do that, we support everybody. All boats full ride. Yeah, for sure. 

Ari Tuckman
Yeah, exactly. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus
Okay. All right. Thank you. Thanks for being here. We're recording this before The Fall Conference. So I'll see you in a couple of weeks, and for those of you listening, we've got the virtual conference coming up in a few weeks. So, hopefully, we'll see you there and to those of you listening. Take a moment, check in with yourself. What's your insight or your AHA from this conversation? What are you taking away from this conversation? I know what Ari and I were talking about, but what were you thinking about? And what are you aware of now that you might not have been so clear about 25 minutes ago? And as always, my friends, thank you for what you're doing for yourselves and for your kids. At the end of the day, you make an extraordinary difference. Take care everybody.