Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Welcome back, everybody to another conversation in the Parenting with Impact podcast. 

Diane Dempster: It's asked today, yeah. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We’re always brainstorming about the issues that come up in coaching, particularly in our coaching groups, such as parenting groups. Today, we have two topics we want to address and blend together, right?

Diane Dempster: Yeah, well, the first one is that there are so many different flavors of this. My kids not living up to their potential, my kids just phoning it in—like, they did their homework but only did the bare minimum. I'm going to tell a story in a minute, but that's what we mean by 'phoning it in.'

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That's the first point is their level of excellence might not align with their level of capacity. The second point is a recurring theme we've noticed—when we tell our kids what to do, direct them, or even over-direct them, they often end up feeling judged.

And it's not our intention but it's the unintended impact of either what we're doing or saying or how we're doing or saying. And what we realized is that both of these topics kind of gel with each other, they kind of go hand in hand. So we thought we might. 

Diane Dempster: Well, and by the end, we want to make sure that we've talked about the impact of them feeling judged, even if we don't mean to be judging them. So like, Can I start with my story? Because this is like quintessential, I'm not gonna tell which child this was on.

But one of my kids in about, I don't know, fourth or fifth grade, when is it that they first started having to do more extended essay kinds of stuff, like third, fifth grade is kind of timeframe late elementary. The teacher gave a great, what is a syllabus, right? Where they say your things.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Rubric.

Diane Dempster:  Rubric. That's the word right, of how to do and what to include in this paper, and everything else. And the thing that the teacher did not say in the rubric was, how long did the thing need to be.

And this brilliant kid of mine, who hopefully will listen to this, solves the entire rubric without flaw, every single piece of what was required in four sentences.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That is to give credit for participating.

Diane Dempster: It was so brilliant. I looked at it and thought, "They've really gone through everything to make sure they covered all the requirements." Then, I thought to myself, "I think this teacher expected this to be a two- or three-page paper." And here, they've written a paragraph that covers everything they were supposed to do, right?

It’s this kind of thing where, technically, they did what was required and did their best work. The hard part is knowing what their best work technically is. Did they do what the teacher intended? It was one of those moments that really caught my attention.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What strikes me about this is that it's a great example. In that case, you could argue that there was real cleverness in how they approached it, and that might be considered the best work on some level.

This also happens with one of my kids in particular. They would do the bare minimum—like a one- or two-word answer to something. It’s the shortest possible answer, but it’s not complete. Often, the teacher would come back and ask them to expand, like, "Give me a sentence." But it’s that rush to finish it quickly, without paying attention to whether they were doing it well.

The mantra I came up with for this kid was, "A job worth doing is worth doing well." The first time I heard them say that to one of their campers when they were a counselor, I thought, "Yes, they got the message from me."

They didn’t get it for themselves when they were a student, but there’s this tendency in some kids—especially those with ADHD or hyperactivity—to just race through things and get them done so they can move on to what’s more interesting to them.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, so many things are going on. For one, if something is boring, they just try to get through it quickly. The other thing is, Elaine, you mentioned "doing it well."

That’s an interesting point. There's a level of arbitrariness in the expectation—it's not just about doing what's literally required but going beyond that. It takes a lot of understanding of executive function and attention to detail. It involves advanced thinking, and that's a lot to ask.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and there was, then there's a piece that goes into the feeling piece, which is, do you feel proud of the work you're doing? Right? There was a, if you're doing it, well, you tend to feel kind of proud of it.

And if you're phoning it in, there's some level of which you may or may not, you may, but you also may not care about the quality of the work as much as you care about the completion of the work.

Diane Dempster:  Well, and I just want to be clear about that. Because as you were saying that I'm like, Am I proud of my work? It's done. Right? It says, Yes, I'm proud that I finished it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus:  Which that's what I mean is Lesch-Nyhan for some kids, it's what? 

Diane Dempster: Is gratitude the right word? It's more like, "I am who I am, and what motivates me is getting the task done," rather than striving for a certain level of competency—especially one defined by someone else.

For instance, you might have a child who wants to please their teacher and focuses on questions like, "What would my teacher want?" or "What would look good to an outsider?" Perhaps they have their own internal standard, like making sure something is neatly written.

The real issue is this: we often want our children to value what we value in their work, rather than guiding them to discover what they value about it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly, right. That was the turning point for me and my family with one of my kids. I had to stop and reflect on the difference between wanting from instead of wanting for. I realized I needed to stop wanting him to deliver what was expected of him by me or his teachers.

Instead, I began shifting the conversation to focus on him: What’s important to you as a student? What matters to you about your education? It had to be about his values and what he found meaningful, so he could become invested in the work.

It took years before he stopped just going through the motions. In his mind, it didn’t matter until after eighth grade.

Diane Dempster: Well, and that ties into a broader conversation about intrinsic motivation. But as you were speaking, I thought about parents who might say, But my kid already knows they want to go to Harvard! They say they want to go to college.

So parents assume, Well, if they want to go to college, they should want to do well in school. But many kids struggle to connect those dots because it’s not about now. It’s this long-term idea, and for them, it feels distant and irrelevant.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly—not now and not now.

Diane Dempster: Yes, it’s like what you mentioned about eighth grade. I remember so clearly when both of my kids went to high school orientation.

They came home and said, Mom, now school counts. I hadn’t even realized that, in their minds, it hadn’t counted before. But for them, it did. Somebody must have told them, High school counts. That gave them permission to think, Wait, what we’ve done up to this point didn’t really matter.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. From our perspective, it might seem like our kids are just phoning it in, but from their perspective, there could be another value they’re honoring. It could be the value of just getting it done, doing it neatly, or something else entirely.

Diane Dempster: Or the value of having time to focus on the things they truly love.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. There's always a reason for their behavior, whatever that behavior may be. Understanding what’s important to them—and for them—is part of engaging with them effectively.

Diane Dempster: Before we move on to the next point, let’s explore how we help a parent reconcile that. Because we have our own standards, and those standards might differ from our kids'.

When is it okay to say, "Yes, you have to do it this way," versus allowing them to approach it in the way they feel is important? It’s about finding the balance—when do we step in and impose our standards, and when do we let them figure it out for themselves?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. Or even, how do we approach that balance? I remember a client whose child was a high-performing kid with ADHD. The child had done exceptionally well on standardized tests, yet the parents were pushing for additional test prep to improve the scores further. This led to a conversation about motives.

Were the parents pushing because they wanted a better score, or because the child wanted it? The mom explained that the child wanted to get into a top-tier school, so she believed this extra effort was necessary. But the shift had to happen from, “I think he needs to do this,” to, “Does he understand the connection you're making?”

Diane Dempster: Right, and not just whether they understand the connection, but also whether they’re willing to invest in it. Both elements matter.

A child might understand that achieving straight A’s could help them get into a better school, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re ready—or able—to do all the work it takes to get there.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. So, can we shift to another related topic? I think it ties in: when we’re telling our kids what to do, do they feel judged? Let’s expand on that idea and see how it connects.

Diane Dempster: Well, I think the important thing here is that we're asking our kids to meet a standard that isn’t theirs. If you think about it, our intention is often to raise the bar for our child.

We want to help them see their potential, fit in with their classroom requirements, or meet other expectations. That’s understandable. But the critical question is, What is your kid hearing?

I recently heard a podcast about this—I'll try to find it in the show notes—and it really stuck with me. The moment we say, “Yeah, good job, you got your homework done. But you didn’t do this,” or “But you didn’t do that,” or even, “And…,” the question becomes, What are they actually hearing?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. What they’re hearing is, “It wasn’t good enough.”

Diane Dempster: Exactly. They’re hearing, “It wasn’t good enough.” And the thing is, they’ve already decided, “I’m done. I think it was good enough. I finished it.” Then we come in and question that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And it’s not just about schoolwork. It could be about how they load the dishwasher, their habits with clothing—whatever it might be. If we have a different standard or expectation for anything we’re asking them to do, and we only see the completed job as “not what we thought it should look like,” they’re very likely to feel judged—even if we don’t mean to be judging.

Diane Dempster: Right. What’s your story about this? I think I’ve mentioned this before on the podcast, but since you brought up dishwashers…

My partner and I load the dishwasher completely differently. There’s this quote I love: In every household, there’s one person who organizes like an architect…

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Like a Swedish architect.

Diane Dempster: Yes! A Swedish architect. And then there’s the other person, who organizes like a raccoon on meth. In our house, I’m not going to say who’s who because we both think the other one is the raccoon.

But here’s the thing: I caught myself feeling judged. I’d see him rearrange the dishes after I’d already loaded them, and I’d think, “He doesn’t like the way I load the dishwasher.” It triggered this light bulb moment of judgment. Then I had to pause and ask myself, “Okay, hang on—do I really care?”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. Do you really care?

Diane Dempster: Do I really care? He took the time—it was important to him—to move the dishes around and arrange them differently from how I had done it. He probably had a reason for it. In our house, we value intention, so he likely had a good reason for rearranging everything. He might have been solving a problem I didn’t see.

But it also comes down to this, he likes things his way, and I like them my way. You can either see it as just different approaches, or you can interpret it as “They think I’m doing it wrong,” or, “I think they’re doing it wrong.” That extra layer is what I’m getting at.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What I’m noticing is that, as adults, we can assess these situations, recognize our partner’s intentions, and stay curious. We can think, “Okay, they probably meant well.”

Diane Dempster: That’s a pretty advanced level of compassion.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. But our kids don’t yet have that level of emotional maturity or sophistication. They are in a power dynamic with us because we’re the authority—we’re the adults, and they’re the kids.

Even as teenagers try to assert their independence, there’s still a fundamental imbalance. This dynamic isn’t an equal partnership. It’s more like a supervisor-employee relationship. When we redirect their behavior, they’re likely to interpret it differently than we intended.

Diane Dempster: That’s the key point—it’s not just about our intentions; it’s about how they perceive it. I say this all the time: we might not mean to sound judgmental, but they might hear judgment anyway. They could interpret it as “You think I’m terrible.” That may not be our intention, but it’s what they hear.

Another critical aspect is the importance of connection. We always emphasize relationship first, connection first. But so many of us are busy or disconnected from our kids, whether because of their schedules, our schedules, or even tension in the relationship.

If most of our interactions with them are about what they’re doing wrong, that erodes trust and weakens the relationship.

One benefit of not correcting every little thing, like how the dishwasher is loaded, is that it helps balance the communication. Sometimes, choosing to let things go means creating a better balance between positive and corrective interactions.

That balance matters—a lot. We talk about the ideal ratio being 3:1 or even 5:1: three to five positive interactions for every correction. That’s challenging for parents but incredibly important.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: So many thoughts came to mind as you were talking. One big one was rejection sensitivity. In the first part of what you were saying—about how it’s not what we intend but how they hear it—I was reminded of my own experience.

For many years in my marriage, my husband and I didn’t understand this concept. Neither of us could figure out why he reacted so strongly to things I said. If you know me, I don’t come with a lot of judgment; it’s not my default. Yet, he often heard judgment.

Eventually, we realized it wasn’t about me—it was about his experiences as a six-year-old child. There was this whole backstory that made him feel rejected, even when no judgment was intended. That was eye-opening. Whether we’re talking about our kids or our partners, understanding their underlying sensitivity to rejection is crucial.

The other thing I want to highlight is a conversation we had with Marcy Caldwell. She talked about emotional regulation, specifically how much harder it is for people with ADHD. There’s something in the brain that makes them more attuned to negative comments than to positive ones. Do you remember that conversation?

Diane Dempster: I do. And just to clarify, when you mentioned “Palooza,” you meant the 2024 event, not 2023.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. 

Diane Dempster: So, it's the Parenting ADHD Summit now.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right, sorry, and thank you! It used to be called the Palooza, but now it’s the Summit. Whatever we’re calling it, the conversation with Marcy Caldwell is incredible. If you haven’t registered for the Summit yet, it’s amazing—and you definitely should!

Diane Dempster: Yeah, and about the negative bias—the heightened tendency to focus on negative information in both adults and kids with ADHD. There’s an official term for it, but the bottom line is, it’s more pronounced in ADHD, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly. That tendency to latch onto the negative and dismiss the positive is biologically influenced—it’s a part of ADHD. I find it fascinating, though sometimes horrifying, too.

Diane Dempster: Right and it’s exaggerated because of the connection to executive function challenges, isn’t it?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yes. So, we’ve talked about what happens when our kids seem to be "phoning it in" and explored the values underlying their behaviors. We’ve also touched on their feelings of being reactive, rejected, sensitive, or judged. Now, if we’re directing—or over-directing them—how do these dynamics intersect?

Diane Dempster: The intersection happens in those moments where we question if someone else could have handled it better.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: How do you address that, though?

Diane Dempster: Well, we do hold ourselves and our kids to different standards. We want to provide feedback, but we also want to maintain a healthy relationship. So, it’s important to find ways to communicate that balance.

For me, it all comes back to the communication tools we teach in Sanity School and our other programs. It’s about designing conversations and acknowledging their perspective. I could list off our tools, but where should we start?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We’ve got some podcasts on this! We’ll link to them in the show notes—like the one on designing conversations and the one about ACE. I’m not sure if we’ve done one on breadcrumbs, but we do have one on asking for permission.

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: As you said, it’s about being intentional in your communication—approaching it thoughtfully and in a way that defuses defensiveness. The goal is to invite collaboration rather than shutting people down.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. For instance, take the earlier example about homework and "phoning it in." When I’m talking to my child, I might say something like, “It’s amazing you were able to condense this into a single paragraph. I’m curious...”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Hold on—let’s highlight what you just did there. You acknowledged what worked in the situation!

Diane Dempster: Right.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And that’s key. You started by recognizing their accomplishment.

Diane Dempster: And then you say, like, what was it? Like? How are you proud of yourself? What is it this sort of? How does it feel to have done it so succinctly? How does it feel to have done what you've done? Right? It says that they acknowledge and show compassion and get into their experience. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And I hear curiosity and their.

Diane Dempster: Curiosity, and then it's so I'm kind of using ace, which is, maybe ask permission. Are you open to a conversation because something's coming up for me or I'm curious about what you think the teacher will think when she gets it? Right?

It's this sort of so you go into more of an inquiry and exploit that we were talking about explorer with who are we talking about explorer with the other day? It's on. It was on an episode we did with somebody else and Seth Perler. Summit the other day. So I don't even know if we have an ace recording. We might want to do that.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: I think we did. But I'll check. So, yeah, there. So that you're asking the question and getting curious and getting them to get curious. And what I was thinking about, as you said, that is what I unequivocally did with my kiddo multiple times, was kind of get him into the what do you think the teacher wanted?

And, he cuz he knew he was being a smartass, by doing it the way he was doing it, right? And so then you could almost challenge him to well, what do you want the teacher to know how clever you are? If you want the teacher to know how clever you are?

You do it the short way and then the long way, right? And like, so what was in it for him was for the teacher to see that he was outsmarting her, or him, right? And so then you could get him to do more work. Because there was a value to him.

But the value wasn't, let's be honest, it wasn't in doing the work. It was in kind of he looked, he got a lot of value out of the kind of work in the system. That was a big deal for him. And when I learned to play to that, I could encourage him to do more than when I judged it as well. Are you just working on the system?

Diane Dempster: Well. And let's be clear here because not all kids who do this are working the system. And I think there are a lot of parents that would use the N-word, the manipulative word. And I would say the vast majority of kids are not doing this to game the system. They're doing it for reasons that feel really good and important to them.

And it's helpful to acknowledge that and I think that the other reminder is that the thing you think might be going on, may not be the only thing that's going on. And so when we talk about curiosity, and I'll say to parents, well, what do you think was going on?

You might say, well, they're just phoning it in, they don't care. They want to be gaming. They want it like, the first answer you think of may be part of the answer, but it may not be everything. So take them. Mentally go. What else what else? What else might be going on?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, the single best coaching question you can ask your kids or yourself is what else? Right? Truly? All right. I think this is a good conversation.

Diane Dempster: That makes sense too. 

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What do you think? Is it a wrap? 

Diane Dempster: Can be let's do it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay, y'all. What do you take away from this conversation? What's your insight? What's the gem? How do you want to apply it in your life?

What's useful for you about this? And yeah, we will put in the show notes, links to a number of either podcasts or articles about all the different communication tools and some of the things we've just referenced. So we'll make sure that afford it.   

Diane Dempster: Awesome. All right. Thank you always for being with us thank you for what you're doing for yourself and for your kids.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: At the end of the day y'all you make a difference talk to you next one.

Diane Dempster: Thank you, everybody.