Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Hi, everybody, and welcome to another conversation on the Parenting with Impact podcast with Elaine and Diane. How are you today?

Diane Dempster: Hi! I'm good. I’m laughing because we were talking about what we wanted to discuss, and I was wondering, are you sure we haven't talked about this before? It's never the same thing twice. We want to discuss a concept we talk about a lot, but we refer to it by different names. We call it the Four Phases of Parenting, but sometimes we call it other things.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Like the four parent roles of teaching.

Diane Dempster: Or the Four Phases of Empowerment.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, it's one of those things that we talk about a lot, and it ties into a conversation we’ve had for years about supporting versus enabling.

Diane Dempster: Right, and it also ties into the Independence Pyramid. There’s a lot of interconnected concepts. If you've been with us for a while, you might recognize some of this language. For those of you who are new to us, be sure to check out the show notes. They always link to other related podcasts so you can explore more.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Do you think we’ve covered this before, Diane? We did an hour-long webinar on this a couple of years ago, and it really became a major part of what we do because we realized we were onto something. So, should we dive in?

Diane Dempster: Yeah, what are the Four Phases? What does it mean, and what’s it about?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right, here’s what we’ve realized. A lot of what we bring to you comes from our experience in the world of coaching, and much of it is shaped by what we’ve learned from working with parents of complex kids.

Diane Dempster: Exactly.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And this is one of those that falls into the latter category. And what we began to identify over the years and I will really credit my brilliant partner, Diane with this, because she's really great at seeing constructs and putting them into frameworks was we began to see that parents were, there were kind of four phases that parents were in terms of how they were relating to their kids, in any way, but particularly in terms of getting stuff done, right? 

In terms of relating to the kids in relation to the kids independence. And when we say kids we are could be talking about a 4 year old 14, 24, 34 like any age, and we began to see this pattern. And it took us a few months years to really find the language around it. 

But we saw this pattern of a lot of parents getting stuck, and not moving through the phases. And the whole point of fostering independence and kids and empowering them to take ownership of their lives means that we have to change how we're parenting and stop parenting them like there to go.

Diane Dempster: Well, let me just talk about independence for just a second as a segue, because I think a lot of times we think about independence as a moment in time. And it's like this sort of, okay, so my kid is not independent, not independent, not independent, not independent, and all of a sudden, yay, they're independent, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: And so it feels like there's two steps to the process, either they're not independent, or they're independent. And so it feels like there's only two things. So if they're not independent, I'm supposed to behave one way. And if they are independent, I get to behave a different way. But that's a misnomer. 

Because the process of becoming independent, is actually a process. Its independence is something that's gradual, and learned involves different skill development involves different, components, I'm a little bit more independent, a little less independent. I mean, it's a sort of, it's a process and not a moment in time.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What's important here is that, as parents, we can meet our kids where they are. We can help them become more independent in areas where they're ready, interested, motivated, or however you'd like to fill in the blank. At the same time, we can continue to scaffold or support them in other areas until they’re ready. 

Recognizing the difference between these two is key. People often ask how to know whether they’re supporting or enabling, or whether they’re overdoing it or underdoing it. When we pay attention to the four phases and the movement towards independence, it clears up that confusion. It makes it clear when we’re supporting versus enabling.

Diane Dempster: So, going back to what I just mentioned—it’s not just two phases: either they're independent or they're not, right?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: No.

Diane Dempster: It’s a process, and we talk about four roles in this process. The example I like to give because I think most parents can identify with it is when kids are learning to tie their shoes. When they first get shoes, we tie them for them, or they bring us their shoes and say, "Mommy, tie my shoes," or "Daddy, tie my shoes," right? Then we help them tie their shoes to get them out the door. 

Eventually, they might be able to tie them, but still need help—maybe adjusting or tweaking things. Finally, they reach the point where they’re tying their shoes on their own, and we don’t even notice that they’re doing it.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Or sometimes, we teach them how to tie their shoes, but then we realize that while they’ve learned that skill, doing it takes so much effort that we give them shoes with Velcro. This way, they can focus on other skills. They've mastered tying their shoes, so we don’t need to keep reinforcing it. They may not have the energy to manage both tasks at once.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. So here’s what we’ve discovered. As we’ve alluded to, there are four phases in parenting, and we all start in phase one. That’s the Director mode, where we’re in charge. We have the agenda, and we’re trying to help our kids find the motivation to do things like chores.

Diane Dempster: That’s where we’re setting the phase.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly, we’re setting the phase, guiding them through life. And that’s a natural place for us as parents to be when they’re babies and toddlers.

Diane Dempster: We’re in the lead.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. If we think about it in terms of agency or agenda, when we’re holding the agenda, we’re in the lead. What happens, I think, especially with complex kids—though not just complex kids—is that sometimes parents get stuck in Director mode because they don’t know how to let their kids begin to take the lead in their own life. They want to make sure things are done, done right, or done on time.

Diane Dempster: Or when the kids aren't quite independent. So, they think, until the kids become independent, that gives me the full responsibility, authority, and permission—whatever it is—to be in charge.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: Because they're not able to be in charge in the moment, I can take over and do that handoff, and then I'm out.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, sometimes, I think we stay in charge because, philosophically, we were raised in an environment where we believe parents are supposed to be in charge. We’re supposed to be the authoritarian figure. Maybe our families of origin were like that, so it becomes a philosophical belief that we’re supposed to be in charge as the adults.

Diane Dempster: Well, and what happens is something I like to call the "independence gap." At some point, usually between, I don’t know, 8 or 9, and 14 or 15, depending on the child and the situation we’re talking about…

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We called it the onset of puberty.

Diane Dempster: Or pre-puberty, or whatever it is, right? There’s this gap between our child's desire to be independent and their ability to be independent. And I’m not talking about complete independence—let’s not confuse this. This is important: it’s not about independence in everything.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly, not in everything.

Diane Dempster: But in terms of things like, their ability to independently complete homework, or their independence in going to bed at night, or their independence in getting things together for sports or piano practice.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: Exactly. But there’s a gap there. It’s like, they think they’re more independent or they want to be more independent than they’re actually able to be, or we think they should be more independent than they’re capable of. 

That’s where the conflict starts. If we’re thinking they’re either dependent or independent, and we haven’t created that space in between to say, “Okay, wait, they’re in the process of becoming independent. How do I handle that? What’s my role? How do I move that along?” We forget about the middle ground. So let’s talk about those middle stages.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Okay, so phase one is the director mode—we all know that very well. And heads up, some of you are stuck there. Just flat out, some of you are stuck there, and some of us go back there when we shouldn’t, etc. That’s just human.

Diane Dempster: And at some age, kids tend to see that not as a director, but maybe as a dictator.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, so that’s phase one. And often, we either get stuck there, or we get stuck there because we think our kids need it, and we’re afraid they can’t do it otherwise. The problem is, if we’re stuck there, we’re not inviting our kids to do things differently. So that brings us to phase two, which we call collaboration. 

This is probably where 90% of parenting happens, or the best parenting happens—between phases two and three. Let’s talk about those together. Phase two is collaboration. Phase three is support. And again, if we’re talking about it in terms of agency, ownership, or leadership—whose idea is it to do whatever it is we’re doing, and who feels in charge? 

Phase two is where we’re collaborating and starting to really share the agenda. Phase three is when our kid takes on the agenda and we move into a support role. It’s now their job, and we’re supporting them in doing their job.

Diane Dempster: And when we say “share the agenda,” we may still be setting the phase, but we’re enrolling them into the agenda. We’re getting them to buy into it. Collaborating is about getting them to buy into the agenda—whether that’s their agenda or ours that we’ve enrolled them into. Both are part of phase two collaboration.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And the metaphor I like to use for this—you alluded to it earlier—is if you’ve ever been horseback riding. When you first get on a horse, they usually walk you around in a ring, and they’re holding the reins while you’re just sitting on the horse. That’s when parents are in director mode: the kids are just sitting on the horse, going along for the ride. 

Then at some point, they hand you the reins. Somebody is still walking you around, but now you’ve got the reins in your hands, and you start to feel what it’s like to pull one way or turn the other. You’re participating in leading that horse.

Diane Dempster: But there’s somebody else still holding the reins with you.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Exactly, that’s phase two—collaboration. Phase three is when you let go, and now they’ve got the reins. You might still be holding part of the reins, but now they’re the ones nudging the horse, saying, “Let’s go,” turning left or right. They’re in the lead, and your job is to support, guide, and encourage them in the process. Phase four would be when they’re out on the trail, and you’re back.

Diane Dempster: But we haven’t said what that’s called. Phase four is called championing, right? And there’s an important distinction. Championing is about being able to celebrate, troubleshoot, and be there when needed. So you’re still available, but you’re not actively involved—you’re in the background. 

And when you’re talking about parents getting stuck in director mode, it’s because they think their only choices are to be a director or be out of it. The minute there’s any pushback from the kid, like, “Hey, Mom, leave me alone, I can do this” or “Dad, leave me alone,” they just go, “Fine.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And they don’t go into phase two.

Diane Dempster: They just go, “No, I’m out of this. Good luck. I hope you fail or whatever. I’m leaving my kid to fail.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: And they end up moving to phase four, but it’s not really phase four—it’s not championing. They’re actually tapping out.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Or abdicating. So if you're in that place, and this happens a lot with parents of teens, where you've been directing, directing, directing, and they start pushing back, saying, “No, I got this,” it’s actually appropriate for them to want to take charge. What we're inviting you to consider is that the next step is collaboration and support, rather than just throwing up your hands. 

But to do that, you really need to amp up your communication skills and build the relationship, which we’ve talked about in a lot of other conversations. If you just throw your hands up and say, “Okay, you do it,” you’re not really getting involved in the process of cultivating independence. You’re not setting them up for success.

Diane Dempster: Yeah, and what often happens is they say, “I want to do this,” and then we step out completely. Then they stumble, stagger, or fail. And we interpret that as permission to step back in and say, “Okay, I need to be in charge again.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: “I told you so,” and then we go right back to director mode. So, we really want to focus you on what collaboration with your kid looks like—either sharing an agenda or inviting them to be part of the agenda. If you're one of those parents saying, “Yeah, but my kid’s not motivated,” I say this to new parents in our community a lot. 

Very often, what we find is that a kid isn’t picking up the agenda because the parent has so much control that the kid doesn’t need to. If you’re going to make sure he starts his homework, why should he bother figuring out how to get it started? You're going to come in at some point and nag him enough to get it going. You’ve created this perfect system for you to be in director mode, while he throws up his hands and takes no ownership. So, we really want to look at what collaboration looks like and how we can begin having conversations together, instead of this ping-pong of control.

Diane Dempster: Well, and not only that, but when parents tell us their kids aren’t motivated, a lot of times it’s not about motivation—it’s about executive function. They may want to do it, they may want to be independent, but their ability to follow through, even if they reach an agreement, is often lacking. 

Parents say this all the time: “My kid said they would have their homework done by 4 o’clock. They agreed to it, and then they just didn’t do it. They must not be motivated.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: They must not be… how? Right.

Diane Dempster: But do they have the skills? Do they have the executive function? All of those things, which we talk about in other podcasts. We should point you to those resources right now.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: We’ll go back and look at that. Well, here’s what I want to say about that—if I can remember what I was going to say. If the kid is “not motivated,” the truth is, they’re just not motivated to do exactly what they’re committing to or what you’re asking them to do. 

They are absolutely motivated to play the video game. They’re absolutely motivated to wait for you to remind them at the point where they’re ready to get activated. The motivation just may not be what you want it to be.

Diane Dempster: And as you said a few minutes ago, there’s a pattern that gets created. It’s like, why should I bother to try to do it myself? Or why should I bother to do it my way? Because Mom’s going to come in and tell me how to do it in five minutes anyway.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right. So, if you hear yourself saying things like, “How do I get my kid to…” or “How do I convince her that…,” that’s usually a sign you’re in director mode. The next step is to move into collaboration. What would it look like to collaborate? Do we know what your kid’s role is? Not their responsibility, but what their interest is?

Diane Dempster: Interest, yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Does your kid see it as their job or responsibility at all?

Diane Dempster: To me, that’s one of the biggest questions to move from director to collaborator: whose agenda is it? Right? Is it your agenda? Is it their agenda, but they know you’re in charge? Or are you trying to get them to do something they don’t care about? Or are you trying to work with them to do something that they really do want to do, on some level?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah.

Diane Dempster: Because you approach it completely differently.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah. Well, “whose agenda is it?” is always a key question. The other thing I would say is that to move from director to collaborator, the key strategy is to ask questions.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: To ask, to really get curious and ask questions. What’s important to you about this? What’s the value to you around this? What have you done before that has been interesting to you, that might be interesting here? There are a million questions, depending on the topic, that you could ask. 

But the key is to get curious with open-ended questions, to explore with your kids so they begin to get curious themselves about what’s possible or what’s important about it to them. I think we’ve got another podcast on breadcrumbs. So, we want to be careful not to overdo the questions. We don’t want to interrogate them.

Diane Dempster: Well, and you want to ask questions that they’re ready to answer, right? I’ve had a couple of parents say, “Well, I asked them questions.” What...?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Ready to answer or ponder? Can I add that?

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: It’s not about answering it now. It’s about giving them food for thought.

Diane Dempster: Yeah. Well, no, but what I was going to say is that parents will say, “Well, how can I help?” and then the answer they get back is, “I don’t know.” Well, that’s an indication that maybe you’re asking a question that’s a little bit more advanced than they’re ready for. 

So, maybe collaboration is more about giving them agency, giving them choice, and offering a different level of participation. I’m going to go back to a really basic example, like brushing teeth when kids are little. I remember very distinctly fighting with my 3-year-old about brushing her teeth. 

Finally, I thought, “Okay, maybe if I give her some choices…” I asked, “Do you want to brush your teeth standing up, or do you want to brush your teeth sitting down?” She said, “I want to brush my teeth sitting down.” Awesome, great. We stopped the argument by giving her some control and moving into collaborating, instead of me just saying, “It’s time to brush your teeth.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Well, and that’s key to all of this. When we get into these power dynamics with our kids or get stuck in director mode, 99% of the time, I would say, you’re in a control battle. We need to recognize that when we’re in a control battle with a kid who feels out of control—because let’s be serious, being a kid is being out of control—our job is to begin giving them control in small bits and letting them practice using it. 

This way, they can start exercising control in their life, to become independent decision-makers. If we control everything, they never get a chance to practice in a safe place. We want to create a safe environment for them to make mistakes, learn from them, and feel safe in doing so. If they feel like you’re controlling everything, they’ll start seeking control in any way they possibly can, everywhere they can.

Diane Dempster: Well, and what’s coming up for me as you’re saying that, Elaine, the naysayers are going, “But I don’t want my kid—I don’t want my kid to run the house. I don’t want them to be completely in control.” I mean, this is not a black-and-white thing. 

So, this is what we’re inviting you to understand: there is absolutely a place for boundaries, parental authority, agreements, and rules. If you like that language—I know we don’t tend to use that language very often—but there’s room for that. 

Ultimately, they’re going to need to be able to make choices, decisions, and learn the life skills it takes to be responsible, independent adults. And it’s hard to do that when you’re hanging on so tightly, only to let go at the last moment.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Alright, so here’s the metaphor that just came to me. Okay? If you’ve ever traveled internationally, or domestically, and gone through security or customs, it’s very strict, right? You have to follow the rules. You have to give them this, show them that, take your shoes off here—you have to follow the process and procedures. It’s important that our kids learn to do that. But we only do that a very small percentage of our lives. 

We don’t spend all day, every day, going through TSA, following every single rule. So, yes, it’s important they learn to do that. And if they go through a school environment, they’re going to learn to deal with some level of bureaucracy. But if we don’t give them the chance to do something else, they’re going to start fighting for it.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right?

Diane Dempster: Well, and I think part of what it is, then, is our lack of control. A lot of us—I’m going to raise my hand here—when we get overwhelmed, upset, anxious, or afraid, or whatever it is, our coping mechanism is control, right? 

So if we’re trying to control because we’re triggered, or anxious and overwhelmed, and they’re clamoring for control, that’s where the battle starts. It’s this—I can’t tell you how many parents are fighting with their 9-year-olds or their 20-year-olds, and it’s like...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: What’s underneath that, right?

Diane Dempster: What’s really going on here?

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s where parent coaching comes in. For us, it’s like, let’s help you do your work to manage your stuff so you can take your stuff out of it and let your kid learn what they have to learn. When we map our stuff onto them, that can create a hot mess. But that’s probably another podcast.

Diane Dempster: Maybe it’s already one. So let’s talk about phase three. We’ve chatted about director. We touched a little bit on collaboration. Support is really about that moment where it becomes our kid’s agenda. They really do understand that it’s their responsibility. 

They really want to do it on their own, they get that it’s theirs, and we’re there to support them. And it’s up to them to say what support looks like. And I think that’s another place it gets kind of sticky. What we can say...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Great example. I was listening to one of our trainers for Saturday School. They do these sample sessions for us before they get certified. And she used a great example. Her son came home and had all this homework to do. She said, “Do you need any help?” He said, “No, I’ve got this.” And he started going upstairs. 

She said, “Well, would it be helpful if I brought you a snack and something to drink?” He said, “Yeah, mom, that’d be great.” And her response was relationship-building for her, right? That did a lot to build the relationship. She stayed engaged in a support role for him. Instead of just saying, “I’ll bring you a snack,” she said, “Would that be helpful?” So when he said, “Yeah, that’d be great,” he was back in control, in the driver’s seat, asking for it. A lot of parents complain a lot about how their kids won’t accept help. We want to invite them to ask for help. A support role allows us to do that.

Diane Dempster: Well, and sometimes it’s just about saying something like, “Give me a job.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Right.

Diane Dempster: Or you could say, “Help me, I want to—I know this is your homework, and I know that you want to do well, and it’s my job to have what you need to be successful. Give me a part of this.”

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Yeah, give me something to do to help. And anything. My kids over the years would use me for support in lots of ways. I remember once my kid coming to me and asking me to change a password before exams and change it back after exams because they needed the structure to not be tempted. 

Another kid used to use me as a 20-minute accountability during homework. Can you just check on me? And if I’m on task, say, “Great job,” and if not, I’ll say, “Thanks, Mom,” and get back on track. And it worked because the agenda came from her, not from me.

Diane Dempster: One of my kids—I've got young adults—and one of my kids, we've sat down at her request and gone over the budget every month. It’s like, “How are you doing on your budget? What are you spending your money on?” If she wants somebody to help her be accountable for what she’s already set as a goal for her spending her money.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Can you do that with kids too?

Diane Dempster: Sure.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Sorry?

Diane Dempster: If they ask me to.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Alright, I think we need to wrap this one up. So we did not talk about the fourth phase, about championship. And that's because most of us, it takes a while to get there. And although we’ve got young adults, and yes, our kids sometimes need us to be in the champion role, which is, “Hey, you guys are doing great. How are you doing? How can I help?” But when we’re talking here, active parenting 90% of it happens in collaboration and support.

Diane Dempster: Yeah.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: That’s where we really want you to focus on your conscious parenting, because even when your kids become adults, at some point, things come up in their life where you’re kind of moving back into collaboration and moving back into support roles. And that’s pretty typical.

Diane Dempster: So, director, collaborator, supporter, champion—don’t get stuck. If you’re feeling like you’re stuck...

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Get help.

Diane Dempster: Get help. We can help. It’s what we do all the time. And thanks for listening.

Elaine Taylor-Klaus: Talk to you soon. Have a great week, everyone.